and you have those big nukes and america protecting you, relax a little
#192102 Wael Thu Feb 21st 19:13:53 2008
Will,
cc Ben,
For most Israelis "war" is fought on the enemy territory, with the enemy cities and civilians bombed safely from above with impunity. Israel invaded Lebanon in 1982, killed more than 30,000, destroyed its capital, and occupied its southern part for more than 20 years during which none of its major cities was hit with a bullet. Businesses were open and people were going about their daily stuff while Israeli jets were savagly butchening the neighbours a few kilometers away. When you understand what "war" is (or has been) for most Israelis, you understand they're not lunatics when 78% of them support a "war" with Iran as long as their cities are not hit, their businesses are open, and their economy is rolling they'll just waltz in , bomb the nukes and be back for dinner.
#192103 ben Thu Feb 21st 19:39:45 2008
there you have it. wael says that we are not lunatics.
Iranian Parliament Speaker Gholam Hadad has warned that the "countdown to Israel's destruction has begun," in an interview published Thursday in an Iranian newspaper.
#192104 ben Thu Feb 21st 19:59:02 2008
eugene
i saw the eclipse this morning around 5:30. that is why i am so crazy about iranians promising my destruction.
#192105 ben Thu Feb 21st 20:05:19 2008
no doubt the lebanese are also lunatics.
As street clashes between pro- and anti-government supporters in Beirut fuel fears of a new civil war, many Lebanese have started to arm themselves as they prepare for the worst, arms dealers say.
//www.naharnet.com/domino/tn/NewsDesk.nsf/getstory?openform&DF5DBB58B5A00681C22573F6001F4574
or maybe not. who knows how far the zionist dirty hand goes?
#192106 Will Thu Feb 21st 22:37:07 2008
Excellently put Wael, They dont know what war feels like and in order to avoid that sensation they jump at the throat of the potential attacker before they can get out their front door.
I suppose it's perfectly logical behaviour when you take that simple point on board.
But isn't that what a lunatic perceives as a logical way to avoid war ?
#192107 Will Thu Feb 21st 22:38:33 2008
"countdown to Israel's destruction has begun"
Did he give any indication as to what number it was at?
#192109 eugene Fri Feb 22nd 01:22:58 2008
They dont know what war feels like
let's keep it that way.
#192111 Joe The Rabbi's still President Fri Feb 22nd 04:01:25 2008
This is the American project that deserves to be supported and defended, even if it is championed by George Bush. It is a project that serves the rights of nations to self-determination while presenting an image of the Islamic world that is far different from the stereotypes of radicalism and fanaticism which a few movements in our region insist on creating and propagating to the world in every audiovisual form.
english.daralhayat.com/opinion/OPED/02-2008/Article-20080221-3c91cc89-c0a8-10ed-017c-43246c8fa2f4/story.html
#192112 ben Fri Feb 22nd 05:41:20 2008
They dont know what war feels like and in order to avoid that sensation they jump at the throat of the potential attacker before they can get out their front door.
norman compared the alleged 78% israeli support for a war with the 8% english support. so somehow the english do know what a war feels like and the israelis don't and that is supposed to explain the difference in levels of support?
what utter complete nonsense you people are talking.
#192113 eugene Fri Feb 22nd 08:04:25 2008
what utter complete nonsense you people are talking
ben, you, unlike finkelstein, don't know what war is like.
and you have those big nukes and america protecting you, relax a little
#192114 ben Fri Feb 22nd 09:13:43 2008
eugene
finkelstein is the child of holocaust survivors.
therefore what he says is gold.
what about the lebanese? if it is true that they are stocking up on weapons, are they also lunatics? but how can that be when no one knows war like they do (with the possible exception of maybe a few african countries)?
now i am going to calmly wash the floor for shabbat.
#192116 george Fri Feb 22nd 16:24:31 2008
192081 ben
I suppose that is the point. Taking "everything" into account includes taking politics into account. Taking politics into account belongs in the voting booth, not in the report.
#192117 ben Fri Feb 22nd 16:40:04 2008
george
dror said repeatedly that he was not talking about HIS writing of the report but how the PUBLIC should deal with it.
#192118 george Fri Feb 22nd 17:15:05 2008
192117 ben
Yes. But there is this feeling* that he has such a mind-set that he brought those ideas with him in formulating the report. He finds the idea so natural that he cannot seperate them out.
* for example, a quote like this gives such an impression
I'm an elitist. Eighty percent of the critical decisions affecting Israel are shaped by maybe 100 or 200 people, 300. These are my clients. www.jpost.com/servlet/Satellite?cid=1202742130552&pagename=JPost%2FJPArticle%2FPrinter
or this opinion on how to see Dror:
www.jpost.com/servlet/Satellite?cid=1202742150553&pagename=JPost%2FJPArticle%2FPrinter
Even if, as Dror claims, this represented guidance to voters on how to decide rather than his personal opinion, the bottom line is the same: Far from deeming public support essential for such fateful negotiations, Dror, like Marcus and Beilin, views the voters' seeming preference for an opponent of the talks as justification for thwarting their choice by retaining a failed premier.
He doesn't pull his punches.
www.israelnationalnews.com/SendMail.aspx?print=print&type=0.1&item=142026
#192119 george Fri Feb 22nd 17:16:07 2008
Regarding 192118
This was a separate item not related to Dror:
He doesn't pull his punches.
www.israelnationalnews.com/SendMail.aspx?print=print&type=0.1&item=142026
#192120 george Fri Feb 22nd 17:17:12 2008
And just for variety ...
www.israelnationalnews.com/SendMail.aspx?print=print&type=0.1&item=141972
#192121 Wael Fri Feb 22nd 19:28:16 2008
....they jump at the throat of the potential attacker before they can get out their front door.
Will,
When an elephant is taken from the wild to be trained he's first chained to the ground with a thick steel chain. For a while, the elephant will test the chain to see if he can get free. But over time he tests the chain less frequently and eventually accept the fact that the chain is too strong to break. Once he accepts this, his mindset shifts from being wild and free to simply being captive. The trainer can then remove the heavy chain and replace it with a light rope. He knows the elephant will no longer try to get free.
Israel was established in the heart of an immense and vast Arab world with a shared collective memory in which an imperialist history is live and present. This reality skipped the early pundits of the Zionist revolution but became obvious later on and there's no doubts about it today. This elephant is still testing the chain and have been doing so for the last 60 years and nothing indicates he's stopping anytime soon. What happens when you realize that you can't afford keeping the steel chain forever, and replacing it with a rope is not going to happen ? You savagely punish it and punish it and punish with brutal force if it dares to move while telling everyone that "you have to".
#192122 eugene Fri Feb 22nd 19:53:47 2008
as long as the "vast arab world" looks at the chain and sees only israel, it will never break that chain.
#192123 Wael Fri Feb 22nd 20:59:16 2008
Tell that to Gazan....
#192124 fadel fadel-abujamal@hotmail.com Fri Feb 22nd 21:16:35 2008
(((Will,
cc Ben,
For most Israelis "war" is fought on the enemy territory, with the enemy cities and civilians bombed safely from above with impunity. Israel invaded Lebanon in 1982, killed more than 30,000, destroyed its capital, and occupied its southern part for more than 20 years during which none of its major cities was hit with a bullet. Businesses were open and people were going about their daily stuff while Israeli jets were savagly butchening the neighbours a few kilometers away. When you understand what "war" is (or has been) for most Israelis, you understand they're not lunatics when 78% of them support a "war" with Iran as long as their cities are not hit, their businesses are open, and their economy is rolling they'll just waltz in , bomb the nukes and be back for dinner. ))
wael
I was there in Lebanon also and I know what was happening the Lebanese among themselves killed several times more than Israel did they destroyed Lebanon several times more than Israel did..... and they are ready to repeat their traditional destructive practice again in any moment
there is no doubt that israel is a criminal state but in definite circumstances it may develop to a toleratable society and state and can coexist in peace with us… but development like this will never happen with fundamentalist groups like hesbalah or ( hamas) or( ben laden) they are more danger to our societies than Israel
#192125 fadel Fri Feb 22nd 21:47:33 2008
(as long as the "vast arab world" looks at the chain and sees only israel, it will never break that chain.)
I dont think the vast arab world do .. you may have this impression because you are internet addict and exaggerate significance of any detail you read ... peace between Israel and palestinians finishing with independent palestinian state will be the biggest strategic step in middle east since 100 years and the vast majority wont care any more about Israel ..jewsh .. palestinian and Israelis wont care any more about this vast arab world and may be even the Palestinians do the same
#192126 Will Fri Feb 22nd 23:24:53 2008
I feel embarrassed with my achievements Wael,
You are an applied mathematician, a software engineer and in your spare time you also train elephants. Yet you still find time to come on here and help to educate me. Shukran, I have enjoyed your last two posts greatly. We all know this page is desperately in need of a little honest prose.
A giant untameable elephant on a useless chain ... ? Thats a little scary.
How can the trainer who has failed to train the elephant proceed without having to get his elephant gun? There is no forest left for the elephant to hunt bananas in, so the failed trainer cant set him free.
Is it possible that the elephant has accepted the circus and the chain, but refuses to stand on two legs and balance a beach ball on its trunk while some little guy in a uniform whips his ass and offers peanuts for supper?
Maybe he knows the circus is inevitable and all the elephant wants is better food and and working conditions.
With independence and freedom, I am sure the Palestinians could one day replace firing rockets with shooting each other out of cannons.
#192127 eugene Fri Feb 22nd 23:35:04 2008
Tell that to Gazan....
i'm telling it to the "elephant".
#192128 eugene Fri Feb 22nd 23:38:08 2008
I dont think the vast arab world do .. you may have this impression because you are internet addict and exaggerate significance of any detail you read ... peace between Israel and palestinians finishing with independent palestinian state will be the biggest strategic step in middle east since 100 years and the vast majority wont care any more about Israel ..jewsh .. palestinian and Israelis wont care any more about this vast arab world and may be even the Palestinians do the same
ahalan, yafadel,
perhaps you're right - i was just responding to the great "elephant" allegory wael posted
#192129 Wael Sat Feb 23rd 00:00:42 2008
Fadel,
it may develop to a toleratable society and state and can coexist in peace with us....
Did I say otherwise ?
#192130 Wael Sat Feb 23rd 00:05:58 2008
Fadel,
....but development like this will never happen with fundamentalist groups like hesbalah or ( hamas)
So why it didn't happen before those groups existed ?
#192131 Wael Sat Feb 23rd 00:12:55 2008
Fadel,
When and where were you in Lebanon ? did you fight with the PLO during the Lebanese civil war ?
#192132 Will Hahaha Joe , Sat Feb 23rd 04:14:36 2008
.. aside from the matter of principles, Kosovo's independence offers the US no gains whatsoever on the strategic level.
Thats funny Joe,
No strategic gains .
Kosovo , sitting as it is on the biggest new fossil fuel pipelines in the world. Kosovo's Camp Bondsteel , the biggest foreign American military base in the galaxy. Built beside the largest new fossil fuel reserves of the century. Trillions of tons of carbon fuels. What comes after trillions?
They think there may be that much oil there. GGzzillionssss of tonnns.
No strategic gain.
Youre funny joe.
HAhaHA A.
#192133 badboy wedres07@yahoo.com Sat Feb 23rd 12:13:55 2008
Hello
profitzone.info - the real swindlers (this libertyreserve (U9953601) and e-gold (5108626) accounts safely add in the black list)
By
#192134 Joe Sat Feb 23rd 16:49:11 2008
Israel continues her slide into the abyss.
Sderot mayor ready to negotiate with Hamas.
Sad but true...
www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-3510154,00.html
#192135 Will Sat Feb 23rd 18:33:37 2008
Sad but true, and quite lame also.
What has he got to offer the Palestinains in Gaza?
He literally couldnt deliver a newspaper dont mind and end to the siege or even a stop to the Israeli attacks.
This Bozo comes to the table with a sum total of ......zero nada, zilch. In fact his little stunt is no more than a veiled threat. What are the Sderot protestors looking for up in Tel Aviv. A stop to the Qassams, How ?
Here's a crazy thought. Why dont the Sderot residents go and form a human barrier across the border where the Army enters Gaza everyday for its daily quota of murder. Stop the Army going in to cause mayhem and in return ask that the rockets be stopped on Sderot.
Thats a serious challenge to all parties instead of empty worthless ceasefire offers and abstract protests in the safety of TelAviv.
#192136 ben Sat Feb 23rd 20:44:21 2008
//www.jpost.com/servlet/Satellite?cid=1202246347891&pagename=JPost%2FJPArticle%2FPrinter
george
instead of reading opinion pieces written by right wingers, why not read the interview that dror gave to the JP and then decide, based on Dror's words, if he tried to save olmert. even that quote about the 300 is being taken out of context.
#192137 ben Sat Feb 23rd 20:50:14 2008
I dont think the vast arab world do .. you may have this impression because you are internet addict
actually it is because of the internet that i learned this point to be true, but some experience in the commercial world. arab countries may have their problems with israel, but that certainly does not mean that people in algeria, morocco, dubai, wake up thinking about israel.
#192139 eugene Sun Feb 24th 06:11:53 2008
wael's elephant has been spotted:
http://www.wilddiscovery.ae/
#192140 Efraim Cloudy, but no rain yet Sun Feb 24th 12:17:08 2008
Ben,
The little red flowers are out but there aren't as many as last year. Some people have said that this is because of a lack of rain but I think it's due to the cold weather setting them back. I was out yesterday and a close examination indicates that many more flowers are on the way.
Wael,
The Arab world as an elephant? C'mon now; it's more like a flock of chickens. If you have ever worked with chickens you would know that they make a lot of noise but run away from an enemy. As soon as one chicken is hurt in some way, the others gather around and peck it to death.
Will,
I'm glad to see that your education is continuing here. Unfortunately you seem best at learning what you already know but that's better than nothing.
To all:
I have a feeling that we are heading towards another war, either in Gaza, Lebanon or both. I don't look forward to such an eventuality. As usual wars will happen because it is in everyone's interest to have one. The Hamas leadership are anxious to show a victory after they have bankrupted the Gaza population (but not themselves praise Allah). The situation of the Hizbollah in Lebanon is getting more untenable by the minute. The Syrian leadership doesn't seem to know which way to turn next (always a dangerous situation). And Olmert wouldn't be upset if the IDF gave the Hamas or Hizbollah a great big bloody nose.
Does anyone have any fresh ideas as to how the next war can be prevented?
By the way, Israel won't attack Iran. The Iranian threat is to the Saudis and the Persian Gulf Arab states not to Israel. What's in it for us to clean up the mess a nuclear Iran will put them in?
Efraim
PS - Hang in there HS. I enjoy reading your contributions to the discussion. We don't always agree but we're Jews so what else do you expect.
#192141 ben Sun Feb 24th 13:45:44 2008
efraim
i get the feeling that olmert was so burnt in lebanon, he will do everything that he can to avoid another war. in gaza nothing short of a kassam hitting a kindergarden will get him to send the troops in.
#192142 Will Pugilism 101 Sun Feb 24th 15:51:19 2008
Unfortunately you seem best at learning what you already know but that's better than nothing.
Never step into an argument with your hands in your pockets.
Not even with a pinko -leftie, terrorist sympathiser.
Ive thought you at least one thing, Efraim.
#192143 Efraim Some water has passed under the bridge since then Sun Feb 24th 16:22:39 2008
Ben,
I suspect that Olmert feels that he should have waited about a year before getting into a war like Lebanon. He had a Chief of Staff who hadn't been his choice (since corrected) and a Minister of Defence who was a political appointee and wrong for the job. Since then he has conducted two dicey enterprises in Syria where two different major elements of the defense establishment were tested out and the rest of the military apparatus has been undergoing the kind of exercises that have been cancelled in the past few years due to budget constraints. So I am not of the opinion that Olmert is gun shy. He may not be as ready to shoot from the hip but that may be an advantage if he is expected to take advice from the "experts".
Will,
The current thought here is:
"Never step into" a war "with your hands in your pockets."
Habesor
#192144 Will Peace through peace. Sun Feb 24th 17:03:05 2008
Why dont the Sderot residents go and form a human barrier across the border where the Army enters Gaza everyday for its daily quota of murder. Stop the Army going in to cause mayhem and in return ask that the rockets be stopped on Sderot.
Efraim,
You're the Sderot / Negev expert, how 'bout a comment on this fantastical peaceful demostration proposition.
#192145 Efraim Poor memory Sun Feb 24th 22:53:15 2008
Will,
You seem to have forgotten that the Israeli settlers and the IDF pulled out of Gaza and the response of Hamas et al was to continue the firing of Kassam rockets into the Sderot area. What makes you think that if the citizens of Sderot stop the IDF from operating against the Kassam crews in their neighborhood the rockets will stop?
By the way, why don't the Hamas put Israel on the spot by announcing an unconditional ceasefiring of Kassam rockets on Sderot. It would certainly make Israel look bad if the IDF continued to knock off Hamas warriors. And given that you have pointed out the ineffectiveness of those "home made" rockets the Arabs would not be surrendering much of a military advantage either.
Efraim
#192146 Will Falling at the fist hurdle. Sun Feb 24th 23:57:30 2008
Efraim,
I seriously doubt that you would pawn that first sentence off on a person that you had a reasonable amount of respect for.
I would have thought that surely this whole " Israel pulled out of Gaza " canard must be a bit embarrassing for Israelis at this stage. But No. whoops..Up she pops again.
I dont know what to say , that line is a joke now anywhere in the real world. But I'll tell you a funny thing I actually was only reading an article today about this and the second part of your embarrassing first sentence actually has a valid response.
HAARETZ Thu., December 20, 2007 "So what have we done to them" By Nehemia Shtrasler
Immediately after the withdrawal, quiet was in fact maintained. But who remembers and who is prepared to remind us? Qassams were not fired and the truce was honored. But then Israel said that although it had indeed withdrawn from Gaza, in the West Bank it would continue to pursue Islamic Jihad activists. The IDF embarked on extensive assassination operations in the West Bank, and then the Jihad in Gaza declared that it would not abandon its people there and would retaliate where it could.
#192147 Joe Redefining "Quiet" two years later Mon Feb 25th 03:28:47 2008
Immediately after the withdrawal, quiet was in fact maintained.
Bomber attempts first suicide attack since Gaza withdrawal
"A suicide bomb attack was thwarted yesterday, a day after the military leader of Hamas swore to continue attacks against Israel in spite of its withdrawal from Gaza."
www.guardian.co.uk/world/2005/aug/29/israel
www.danielpipes.org/blog/281
#192152 Jaron Mon Feb 25th 07:50:18 2008
Wael,
I am not sure where you get this elephant thing from. Israel is on very tiny chunk of land with a tiny population (5,000,000 among how many Arabs?) just trying to stay alive. Look at a large scale regional map and Israel is literally not much more than speck. Why is it so unacceptably difficult for you guys to let a minority grouping (Jewish, Kurdish, women, Copts and others) actually be free?
I know, this is supposedly all about supporting the oppressed Palestinians. Do you really believe that? If the Palestinians were oppressed by Syria or Egypt would the Arab world care one bit?
#192153 Efraim Another Pronouncement by an "Expert" Mon Feb 25th 08:26:15 2008
Will,
Nehemia Shtrassler is an economics reporter for Haaretz. I've been reading him for years and can only say that he knows nothing about agriculture, which he has discussed from time to time in his column, and he seems to know even less about Arab-Israeli relations.
You may quote Shtrassler all you want. It only weakens your case.
Efraim
#192154 Will The nut case. Mon Feb 25th 15:14:20 2008
Weakens my case ? I wasnt aware I had a case, Efraim.
I asked for your comments on something specific which elicited the usual canard about the Gaza withdrawal. Then you started fabricating your straw man about why the people of Sderot shouldnt try to make a peasceful protest against their neighbours being persecuted, but should be able to expect complete peace themselves.
I showed you an article in Haaretz that directly contradicts the tired assertions in your case, you tell me that you dont agree with the guy on agrucultural matters, ipso facto, you are right -I am wrong.
Wow. Such supreme logic.
Why should the people of Sderot expect the Palestinians to stop firing rockets when they are up in Tel Aviv protesting to get Gaza flattened by missiles or reoccuppied by the army. Why dont they blockade the army from going in to cause mayhem in Gaza and in return call to the Gazans to do the same for them. The army claims to support them up in Tel Aviv, with all that cheering and clapping, so they will without doubt resepct such a blockade.
Is it so repugnant for a resident of Sderot to stand up against the killing of Palestinians in order to try to achieve security for their own people.
#192155 Will Mon Feb 25th 15:55:42 2008
If the Palestinians were oppressed by Syria or Egypt would the Arab world care one bit?
Jaron,
Are we to garner from this that you accept that the Palestinians are oppressed by Israel.
#192157 eugene Mon Feb 25th 16:12:09 2008
I am not sure where you get this elephant thing from
jaron, this is the elephant that roams in the gardens of dream palaces of the arabs.
#192158 ben Mon Feb 25th 16:39:57 2008
well the big pali march today flopped completely. where were the 40,000 people who were supposed to rip down the fence, prompting the brutal fascist IDF soldiers to mow down innocent women and children?
well there are always kassam missiles.
#192159 Will Priroities Mon Feb 25th 17:27:35 2008
ben,
I think the general consensus agrees with you in that whatever they do is irrelevant so long as people can get a bit of a laugh out of it.
#192160 Jaron Mon Feb 25th 19:15:21 2008
Will,
I would say that the Palestinians were (past tense) occupied by Israel. In Gaza that is no longer the case and it has made no difference in terms of attacks on Israeli targets. I certainly would love to see a state of Palestine on the map, and would find it even more amusing to see how your excuses for Palestinian attacks shift since you can't use "occupation" as the theme any more. Is it so hard for you to understand that Hamas does not have an interest in Real Peace (i.e. the viable 2 state solution)? It isn't as if both their charter and their actions don't spell it out explicitely.
I still owe you a response to your earlier "parity" post, but it was off the page by the time I got back on the forum.
#192161 Will Mon Feb 25th 20:31:34 2008
Jaron,
That was mildly amusing. But I would find it even more amusing I am sure, if you would be so kind as to answer the question I actually asked you. Are we to deduce from your query about " if the Palestinians were oppressed by Syria or Egypt would the Arab world care one bit? " that you do acknowledge that the Palestinians are currently oppressed by Israel.
#192162 ben Mon Feb 25th 21:25:49 2008
I think the general consensus agrees with you in that whatever they do is irrelevant so long as people can get a bit of a laugh out of it.
so if they have a real demonstration, where they bring out the 40,000 promised, then no one will laugh.
#192163 ben Mon Feb 25th 21:28:11 2008
In Gaza that is no longer the case
this is only partially true. there are no settlements there.
while israel is certainly not obligated in any way to allow them into israel, still the idf keeps their sea port and airport closed.
#192165 Will Stop the feckin press, boys. Mon Feb 25th 21:42:27 2008
still the idf keeps their sea port and airport closed.
Well heck , you dont say . Closed you say ?
What happened Ben, did a bit of an ould news paper blow over the wall into the Holy land ?
#192166 Jaron Mon Feb 25th 23:43:27 2008
Will,
An occupation is IMO an oppression if the occupied population perceives it that way. The Palestinians seem to consider Israeli occupation to be oppression. It doesn't have to be a foreign power or occupation either for oppression to exist, BTW. I would argue that Sadam Hussein oppressed his own population, as did the Soviets theirs. The Palestinians take it one step further in that they won't allow a Jewish population to even exist at all to be occupied or oppressed on lands they control.
That goes back to the parity topic.
#192167 Wael Mon Feb 25th 23:44:18 2008
Jaron,
I would say that the Palestinians were (past tense) occupied by Israel
Well, you know, I tend to agree. Any "kiryat" inside the WB is not more or less "occupied" then Kirwat Shmona So what do we have here ? a defenseless stateless civilian population who pay taxes to Israel, gets energy from Israel, uses Israeli money, depend on Israel for work, travel, in , out, left , right , up, down, sea, port, land, you name it. If its no longer an occupation - and I agree- than what is it ? de-facto subjects in a de-facto apartheid ?
#192169 Wael Mon Feb 25th 23:47:09 2008
Oh come on Jaron, answer the question please !
#192170 Wael Mon Feb 25th 23:48:20 2008
.....on lands they control
What a farce. Sheer and utter nonsense.
#192171 Wael Mon Feb 25th 23:56:43 2008
Jaron,
Why don't Israelis take your notion of "past tense occupation" a bit further and recognize the 3.5 million de-facto Arab subjects living on the land THEY control from the Jordan to the Mediterranean.
#192174 Will Tue Feb 26th 04:16:55 2008
so if they have a real demonstration, where they bring out the 40,000 promised, then no one will laugh
They did, and a million turned out, it was called a general election. Nobody laughed then as the outcome wasnt that funny.
#192175 Jaron Tue Feb 26th 06:59:27 2008
In 192167 Wael wrote: "Well, you know, I tend to agree. Any "kiryat" inside the WB is not more or less "occupied" then Kirwat Shmona So what do we have here ? a defenseless stateless civilian population who pay taxes to Israel, gets energy from Israel, uses Israeli money, depend on Israel for work, travel, in , out, left , right , up, down, sea, port, land, you name it. If its no longer an occupation - and I agree- than what is it ? de-facto subjects in a de-facto apartheid ?"
Gaza is certainly no longer occupied. Parts of the WB are according to some definitions. WB Palestinian population centers are AFAIK under PA rule and IMO NOT occupied. Israel doesn't decide who is the mayor of Nablus and PA police, no the IDF, commit the HR violations there today against the average Palestinian.
In 192171 Wael wrote: "Why don't Israelis take your notion of "past tense occupation" a bit further and recognize the 3.5 million de-facto Arab subjects living on the land THEY control from the Jordan to the Mediterranean."
You mean a state of Palestine in the WB and Gaza? I am 100% with you. Want to add in land on the other side of green line? If that is what it takes, fine. I have long supported giving heavily Israeli-Arab populated areas to Palestine. These populations identify more with Palestinian nationalism than Zionism, so it is only fitting they should be ruled by a Palestinian state, while they live in the same house in the same village. If you are speaking of one unitary state, absolutely not. Until you can show me living Jewish communities under Palestinian rule, that is a non-starter. I realize that my people are incredibly gullible, but do you think we will just blithely commit suicide? How many Jews live in Gaza? What is the live expectency of a Jew in PA controlled lands? And you want Israel to turn the entire state over? Even the Jewish left (which has amazing cupidity) isn't that dim.
#192177 Wael Tue Feb 26th 17:56:42 2008
Jaron,
I'm not telling you what I want, I'm telling you the facts I see. The fact is there's only one state controlling the land from west of Jordan to the Mediterranean. Whether Palestinians have control on garbage collection in Nablus or not is irrelevant.
#192178 Wael Tue Feb 26th 18:08:06 2008
Jaron,
WB Palestinian population centers are AFAIK under PA rule and IMO NOT occupied.
Palestinian "population centers" . Nice euphemism that tells it all, oh well, whatever.....
#192183 Jaron Wed Feb 27th 01:09:06 2008
Wael,
Hopefully soon you see a sovereign state of Palestine. Currently the Palestinians enjoy a level of autonomy no other state would give to an ethnic nationalism whose most cherished ambition is their destruction.
Wael, one thing you really don't appreciate is just how fortunate the Palestinians are to have Jews as their opposition. If it was anyone else the Palestinian people would have been a smoking crater long ago. If the Palestinians had Israeli military resources, there would be no Jews living anywhere from the Mediterranean to the Jordan. Having Jews as you opposition gives you far more strategic resources (which I have listed in past posts) than any other currently stateless ethnic nationalism I can think of.
By population centers I don't intend any euphemism. Beer Sheva and Tel Aviv are Jewish population centers in the same sense as Ramallah and Khan Younis are Pali population centers. If the government running them speak Hebrew and Arabic (respectively) I don't see how they are occupied.
#192184 Will Jaron Wed Feb 27th 02:52:41 2008
Are we to deduce from your query :
" if the Palestinians were oppressed by Syria or Egypt would the Arab world care one bit? " that you do acknowledge that the Palestinians are currently oppressed by Israel.
In other words, In your opinion , are the Palestinians oppressed?
#192185 Jaron Wed Feb 27th 04:25:38 2008
Will,
This is known in the US as an "are you still beating your wife?" question. If you answer yes, then you admit to current domestic violence and if you answer no then you admit to past domestic violence.
Sure, if it makes you feel better, IMO the average Palestinian is oppressed. Before you get so enthused, though, I would say that they are oppressed just as much by Arabs (their own government included) as Israelis.
Also, I would point out to you that while the Palestinians as individuals may suffer, Palestinian nationalism as a cause is doing quite well.
Maybe I can ask you a similar trick question?
#192186 ben Wed Feb 27th 07:39:39 2008
end of the line:
omri sharon goes to prison today.
#192187 ben Wed Feb 27th 13:23:07 2008
Beer Sheva and Tel Aviv are Jewish population centers in the same sense as Ramallah and Khan Younis are Pali population centers. If the government running them speak Hebrew and Arabic (respectively) I don't see how they are occupied.
i think that the answer would be that in the latter case, the government is not running them.
#192188 ben Wed Feb 27th 14:08:22 2008
i think that something was lost (or maybe added) in the translation.
from haaretz:
Benizri said the government should not make do with reinforcing buildings, but should instead pass less legislation that encourages homosexuality and other "perversions like adoptions by lesbian couples."
#192190 Will Wed Feb 27th 15:43:13 2008
Jaron,
Only if someone was trying to avoid giving a straight answer to a straight question could they perceive: "Do you think the Palestinians are being oppressed ?" as a "trick question".
Theres no trick in it, the trick is for you to try to overcome your aversion to acknowledging Israel's actions against Palestinians for what they are.
Heres how you do it. Say , The Palestinians are occupied by Israel and the Palestinians are being oppressed by Israel. The occupation and the oppression are the major contributory factor to the miserable living conditions being suffered by the majority of Palestinians in the ME.
Poor water quality and bad weather conditions are also a contributory factor in some cases as is the occasional wife beating in others.
There Ive said it for you. You can relax now.
#192191 eugene Wed Feb 27th 18:00:01 2008
Only if someone was trying to avoid giving a straight answer to a straight question can reply to jaron's: "If the Palestinians were oppressed by Syria or Egypt would the Arab world care one bit?" with a question and then complain that the question is not answered to his satifaction.
#192192 Will Wed Feb 27th 18:08:06 2008
Only if someone was trying to avoid giving a straight answer to a straight question could somebody else interject to try to pretend that the question being avoided was in anyway supposed to be a response to another question which the second question was subsequently designed in order to avoid giving an answer to the first question.
#192193 Jaron Wed Feb 27th 18:18:30 2008
The Jewish left wants no living Jews so that's why the Pali state in Palestine has no living Jews because of the Jewish left. How come there are no Jews in the Palestinian state?
#192194 Will The Jewish left wants no living Jews ? Wed Feb 27th 18:23:42 2008
Seriously Jaron,
Are you OK?
#192195 Jaron Wed Feb 27th 19:44:30 2008
Will,
I most emphatically did NOT write 192193. Someone else must have. I am of the view that the Jewish left is misguided on many issues, but also does not INTEND to harm Jews, much as a child playing with matches doesn't intend to burn the house down. IMO they "imagine" into existance their Palestinian nationalist counterparts where the Palestinians aren't cursed with that level of self hatred or cultural compulsion to be nice to those want to kill you.
In 192190 Will wrote: "Theres no trick in it, the trick is for you to try to overcome your aversion to acknowledging Israel's actions against Palestinians for what they are."
Aversion? Israel is involved in a conflict/war with its neighbors. If the neighbors would simply allow her to exist in peace, we wouldn't be having this discussion. One aspect of that was an occupation. I would remind you that from 1948-67 that occupation didn't exist, and STILL there was no peace. That somewhat undercuts your dogma about the occupation being the supposed cause of this conflict. The existance of Israel in ANY borders is the cause. That doesn't lessen my support for creating a state of Palestine yesterday, but it also doesn't mean I believe that Palestinian independence will stop this conflict. Only greater Palestine and the elimination of Israel will do that unless the neighbors change their cultural conditioning.
Will wrote: "Say , The Palestinians are occupied by Israel and the Palestinians are being oppressed by Israel."
You mean in Gaza? Or Palestinian population centers in the WB? From 1967-Oslo I would agree with that. Not to such a degree now. Today the average Palestinian is just as likely to have their HR violated by their own government (whether Hamas or the PA) as Israel. They deal with PA or Hamas officials and vote for or against the same. They get oppressed by an Arabic goon squad these days. The difference is that you either don't hear about it or you don't care since the goons speak Arabic instead of Hebrew. Sort of like how an IRA kneecapping is benevolent "community policing" but a British prison sentence is an atrocity. Even if Seamus can't walk correctly again afterwards. I am sure you know folks who think that way.
Will wrote: "The occupation and the oppression are the major contributory factor to the miserable living conditions being suffered by the majority of Palestinians in the ME."
Explain to me how this justifies Arab governments OUTSIDE the borders of Palestine treating their Palestinian populations just as badly. While you are at it, can you explain to my simple mind why the PA allows no Jews to live within its borders?
I am going to take Eugene's lead and ask YOU a simple question:
If an individual Palestinian had his HR violated in an identical manner by an Arab state or his own government as was done by the Israelis, would you object to the same degree?
Yes or no. A simple question. Rather like yours.
#192196 Will Wed Feb 27th 19:57:23 2008
How come there are no Jews in the Palestinian state?
Are you counting the half million settlers in that figure?
#192197 Will Wed Feb 27th 22:07:45 2008
Jaron,
The Arab Governments can not be said to be treating the Palestinians in their countries "just as badly" as the Israeli Occupation regime. They dont summarily execute and imprison them en masse without charge or evidence. They dont besiege them and stop food , power and medical supplies getting to them. The Arab governments didnt ethnically cleanse 800,000 of them from their homes sending them into exile for the next 60 years. The Arab governments did not build a wall across their farmlands bisecting villages and separating families and communities. Nor did they overturn the results of a democratic election and imprison the elected officials in order that they could have no political representation. Subsequently forcing the people to pursue armed resistance which could be used to justify a cycle of attacks against them.
An individual Palestinian having his HR violated in an "identical manner" (whatever the hell that is supposed to mean) by an Arab state or his own government would not elicit objection to the same degree from me. No, is the answer.
Because a single instance to a single person of HR violation is simply not comparable. While I'm at it, I cant explain to your simple mind why the PA allows no Jews to live within its borders, as a matter of fact I am unaware of any such law being issued by the PA.
The Palestinians are occupied by Israel and the Palestinians are being oppressed by Israel. I mean in Gaza and the Palestinian population centers in the WB and every other single inch of the Palestinian territories.
From 1967-Oslo you would agree with that but not to such a degree now.
So that means that you do agree with it to some degree and given your deluded vision of what is actually going on in Palestine that makes complete sense. As you only seem to have a clue to what is going on to the same degree.
#192199 eugene Thu Feb 28th 00:47:25 2008
'David Baker, an official in the Prime Minister's Office, said in an official response to the Qassam attack that "Israel will take the appropriate measures to bring these murderous rocket attacks to an end."'
does anyone, himself included, believe him?
#192200 Jaron Thu Feb 28th 01:46:30 2008
In 192197 Will wrote: "The Arab Governments can not be said to be treating the Palestinians in their countries "just as badly" as the Israeli Occupation regime. They dont summarily execute and imprison them en masse without charge or evidence."
Have you ever heard of Black September? During the first Gulf War the Palestinian sided whole heartedly with Sadam Hussein. After that war the Gulf state summarily expelled a six digit number (100,000+ IIRC) of Palestinians. Folks like you said nothing at the time. Lebanon to this day refuses to grant citizenship to Palestinians who have been born in Lebanon for several generations and denies them access to many professions. If you think that western style HR due process of law exists for Palestinians (or anyone else) in an Arab state today then you should try to protest overly loudly or effectively....in Syria or Saudi Arabia and watch what happens to you.
Will wrote: "They dont besiege them and stop food , power and medical supplies getting to them."
Egypt cares so much about Palestinians that it allows them how much access to go to Egypt to visit the shops?
Will wrote: "The Arab governments didnt ethnically cleanse 800,000 of them from their homes sending them into exile for the next 60 years."
Arab states just deliberately keep them, alone among any another refugee population on earth, in a miserable state because it cares so much for Palestinian well being. Using their misery as a tool against Israel has nothing to do with it.
Will wrote: "The Arab governments did not build a wall across their farmlands bisecting villages and separating families and communities."
Do you recall why that wall came into existance. It has something to do with many brainwashed people seeking the same 72 dark eyed virgins, via a bus and market bombing campaign.
Will wrote: "Nor did they overturn the results of a democratic election and imprison the elected officials in order that they could have no political representation. Subsequently forcing the people to pursue armed resistance which could be used to justify a cycle of attacks against them."
I guess that since Hitler won a democratic election, the west should have just done whatever Germany wanted, by that logic. Since the US freely elected Bush, then you have right to oppose US policy either. The Palestinians want to elect Hamas, the PA or my house cats, fine. But Israel has a right (as does any state) to shape their policy accordingly. "forcing" Hamas to do "armed resistance". Read the Hamas charter. That is a bit like "forcing" an Irish fellow to drink a Guiness. As for "armed resistance", you would be referring to the suicide bombers who deliberately go after civilians and fire rockets at a town with no military import. Very heroic. But since they won an election I guess Israel should just accept that Hamas will kill her civilian and terrorize the rest. Anything less wouldn't be Jewish. Will, to hell with the 2000 year old traditional sheep like victim that is the Jewish model. I say Israel takes up the Irish Republican model instead.
Will wrote: "An individual Palestinian having his HR violated in an "identical manner" (whatever the hell that is supposed to mean) by an Arab state or his own government would not elicit objection to the same degree from me. No, is the answer."
Great. Hamas can throw Adel off the building and that is fine. You are some HR advocate. Amnesty International would be proud.
Will wrote: "Because a single instance to a single person of HR violation is simply not comparable."
I see. Because the Palestinian people as a whole are being horribly oppressed by Israel, but of course by no one else. And Israelis can feel perfectly safe if they ever end up at Palestinian mercy. Something like that?
Will wrote: "While I'm at it, I cant explain to your simple mind why the PA allows no Jews to live within its borders, as a matter of fact I am unaware of any such law being issued by the PA."
Palestinians kill (IRA "get the collaborator" style) any Palestinian who sells land to a Jew. No Jews live in Gaza that I am aware of. Only 2 Jews I have ever heard of (one of whom is a collaborator) live among the Palestinian WB population. There are certainly no Zionist Jewish population centers under Palestinian rule. By contrast, 20% of the Israeli electorate is Israel-Arab with primary loyalty to Palestinian nationalism. Explain to me this discrepency.
Will wrote: "So that means that you do agree with it to some degree and given your deluded vision of what is actually going on in Palestine that makes complete sense. As you only seem to have a clue to what is going on to the same degree."
I lack the deep awareness you must get from Noam Chomsky and Edward Said. Those great prophets of truth who of course have it correctly.
Eugene,
RE 192199
Since Hamas was freely elected, Israel just has to accept these rockets and not do anything against a democratically elected Palestinian goverment that is hitting a population center with rockets. Any "armed resistance" is out of the question. Will, have I got that correct?
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#192203 Will Newsflash Thu Feb 28th 03:38:53 2008
According to sources : Twelve Palestinians were killed in different Israeli air strikes and shelling in the Gaza Strip on Wednesday, three of the casualties were children. Seventeen residents were wounded.
#192204 Will Thu Feb 28th 03:57:26 2008
Hey Ben, remember you were sneering at the Peaceful Gaza protest ?
Amira Hass had this to say in relation to the peaceful protest that you ridiculed.
The correct question is not whether and how the Palestinians are prepared to be killed but rather to what extent we Israelis are prepared to kill. The question is, if and when the Palestinians decide to claim their right to freedom of movement and to break through checkpoints en masse, will the order be to shoot at them with guns? First at their legs and then at their heads? Women, elderly people and babies? Or perhaps with cannons? And how many soldiers will not obey the order? Two, three or hundreds? Is there a quorum for the number of people who can be killed in one go, at the road blocks, that will extricate Israeli society from its indifference and its denial? Five or six? Hundreds of dead?
#192205 ben Thu Feb 28th 05:21:56 2008
well if amira has spoken then that is it.
everyone seems ready to have palis die for the cause.
#192206 ben Thu Feb 28th 07:12:40 2008
from amira's piece:
The well-publicized army preparations had a racist subtext: Look how Hamas is prepared to send children and women to absorb the bullets.
from will's newsflash;
three of the casualties were children
these three children were playing near a kassam launcher.
no one needs army propaganda to convince that hamas is willing to send children to absorb bullets. hamas does all the convincing quite well.
#192208 Jaron Thu Feb 28th 07:30:10 2008
Ben,
Haven't you heard? Hamas won a democratic election, so they now have carte blanche to launch kassams at you, with human shields to protect the launchers. If you respond you are being immoral and illegal.
#192209 Jaron Thu Feb 28th 07:44:39 2008
Ben,
You could just open the border with Egypt and Gaza and see how much "Arab brotherhood" there is to help the Palestinians.