#190850 Ioram Shahar Thu Dec 27th 16:59:37 2007
In Pakistan, Benazir Bhutto was killed in a suicide attack.
#190851 Joe Another one bites the dust Thu Dec 27th 17:09:17 2007
Ioram,
Let's see what the Muslim world will do to condemn this act.
Yawn.
#190852 eugene Thu Dec 27th 18:46:20 2007
In Pakistan, Benazir Bhutto was killed in a suicide attack.
i guess musharaff knew what he was doing when he let her come back.
#190854 Wael Thu Dec 27th 22:34:39 2007
Let's see what the Muslim world will do to condemn this act
Oh give me a ** break. Why don't you just shut up Joe.
President Bush reaffirmed Pakistani President Pervez Musharraf as an ally in fighting terrorism yesterday and said the U.S. will give him time to return his country to constitutional rule.
http://www.washingtontimes.com/article/20071111/NATION/111110029/1002]
You, your country, and your president are just plain hypocrites.
#190856 Joe The Jihadist Carnage Continues Fri Dec 28th 01:04:55 2007
Why don't you just shut up Joe.
Wael,
I'll think about it.
www.memri.org/jihad.html
#190857 Joe Sliding into the Israeli Trash Heap Fri Dec 28th 01:15:43 2007
Jacob,
Here's another example of Israelis selling out their own country.
We can complain that this president or another is anti-Israel (Bush certainly ISN'T), but do we expect Americans can't be more pro-Israel than Israelis?
This time the editor of Ha-aretz asks the US government to "rape" Israel:
www.camera.org/index.asp?x_context=2&x_outlet=55&x_article=1416
This person should be fired from the newspaper.
#190858 Jacob Fri Dec 28th 03:37:07 2007
do we expect Americans can't be more pro-Israel than Israelis?
Joe
It is very easy to say this and I think so too. However, after stretching the mental effort a little bit further, we could recall that there has been time in the past when the US was the leader of the free world, and could afford to and dared do more than a tiny terrorized country without internationally recognized borders feels to be able. Every little step, every action or inaction that Israel takes is under the nonstop observation under an electronic microscope. Without the US leadership Israel cannot fight alone even it has been able to do it in the past.
#190859 Jacob Fri Dec 28th 03:42:19 2007
I can't imagine why attending a meeting in Tel Aviv would indicate anything but the barest, simplist recognition of the fact of Israel's existence. Why do you think it would somehow indicate recognition of Israel's right to exist or to exist as a Jewish state?
Because any contact with Israel that is not absolutely forced on the Arab side is considered a step on the way towards the dreadful prospect of normalization, which is tantamount to legitimizing the state of Israel.
#190860 Joe wHat ME sTOopid! Fri Dec 28th 04:24:13 2007
ww.memri.com
www.camera.com
www.littlegreenfootballs.com
www.foxnews.com
JacuB:
Wat is liberuls and iSlamic Terrir HaBB, WiTh, Beel Clinton asnd the MSM?
dEmocerats not with Nobody in MuslAms condems Terrir?
HaBB
#190861 Joe WTF Fri Dec 28th 06:16:11 2007
Jacob states:
Every little step, every action or inaction that Israel takes is under the nonstop observation under an electronic microscope.
Without the US leadership Israel cannot fight alone even it has been able to do it in the past.
Jacob,
Exactly. "US leadership" against terrorism since 9-11 has been excellent. Just what the doctor ordered. Israel was given a "green light" to what she needed to do against terror (aka Syria, Hezbollah, Gaza) and Israel dropped the ball.
The Bush-Cheney administration has encouraged the Israeli government to go on the offensive. What happened?
So I chat with the usual liberal Jews around town and on this website, and it's the same story: Bush Derangement Syndrome (BDS)
And then I read the same news articles: high Israeli politicians and personalities (including the Prime Minister) are retreating, giving away land, and delegitimizing their own country.
And who is criticizing these nefarious politicians and personalities? American Jews? The American media? Jews on this website?
Not a peep habibi.
#190862 Joe One more thought Fri Dec 28th 06:23:02 2007
The spiral began the day the Bush Sr. got the Israelis to sit on the sidelines after 39 Scuds landed in Israel.
And what you and I are witnessing is an Israel spiralling further into the black-hole of weakness ever since.
Mind you, this is not America's fault. This is the fault of the GOI and the grave decisions they have made since then.
#190864 Jaron Sat Dec 29th 00:50:39 2007
In 190839 maría wrote: "As you know very well Palestinians in general are not reluctant to meet with Israelis. The problem comes when the meeting is public and even more so if reported by the media.
I suppose that both, elites and Palestinians make their calculations and assess if the risk of disapproval/being called a traitor eventually for mixing with the enemy, is worth taking and for what reward, if any."
Maria,
Israelis and Jews fully and publicly support Palestinian nationalism while other Jews and the rest of the world cheers such efforts on. I see no reason why the Palestinians can't be held to the same standard.
Maria wrote: "Palestinians are as amenable to reasonable political discourse as any other human group,"
This is a normal human group in the grip of a vicious ethnic nationalism that at any real cultural level refuses to accept the legitimacy of the other, whatever words they mouth to the west. Look at what is said at home. The children's show with the shaheed mouse encouraging children to do suicide bombings.
Maria wrote: "but in normalisation with Israelis, in whatever measure, they would need some high caliber politicians that don't exist (in that they are in the same boat as the Israelis are) and instead of a sane and realistic political discourse, they tend to get a bad distortion of reality by their oligarchies and populist idiots.
I don't know what it would take for the Palestinians to get out of the political hole they are in, having become far more destructured as a society in the last few years. Let's hope."
I am unaware of any Palestinian willingness to compromise on the real issue that matters for final resolution - refugees, or more properly the descendents of refugees several generations removed now.
maría
#190869 Klods vvbin@gmail.com Sat Dec 29th 23:09:51 2007
<a href= ></a>
#190870 fadel fadel-abujamal@hotmail.com Sat Dec 29th 23:59:31 2007
Hi every body
realy I forget about this web site despite the burning months of emotionally debates I had here 3-4 years before I just remembered it suddenly I dont know why …it seems more calm and and dosnt seem like war field
How are you all? …I hope fine
I think my English has been deteriorated during these years away from you
Where is ira weiss ..effraim and others?
#190871 Efraim Still kicking Sun Dec 30th 00:19:44 2007
Fadel,
Glad to hear from you. What's happening in your end of town. I'm still around though I don't have too much to offer to the debate.
Do you think that peace is possible?
Efraim
#190872 Will Doh!! Sun Dec 30th 00:20:13 2007
Jaron,
If you have suddenly decided to start signing your posts, then you should really consider signing it off in the same name as you started it. It's more authentic looking.
dave.
#190873 Will Sun Dec 30th 00:21:46 2007
Wael,
Re 190854,
I didnt realise you were a moderator. Why dont you just delete all of Joe's stuff?
#190874 Sun Dec 30th 00:34:37 2007
Fadel,
(Glad to hear from you. What's happening in your end of town. I'm still around though I don't have too much to offer to the debate.
Do you think that peace is possible?
Efraim )
Nothing possible except peace solution for this conflict…the same solution the same without change which had to be done since many years may be since 1974.. nothing has changed the two people still exist in the same land and will continue to exist we both had tried all other options nothing will work except peace solution
#190875 Joe Observation Sun Dec 30th 00:58:02 2007
I'm still around though I don't have too much to offer to the debate.
Efraim,
That's never stopped anyone before
#190876 Jacob Sun Dec 30th 01:58:02 2007
Hello, Fadel! I am too glad to hear from you.
How have you been there in the heart of darkness? How is your Jewish family doing? 
#190877 Jacob Sun Dec 30th 02:40:23 2007
Joe
I know you have access to insider info, so can you tell me where has Cheney gone? I'm begginning to fear for his life, really. Since this mysterious business with the NIE, no one has seen the vice-president. President himself has been heard from only maybe a couple of times... It is so strange that I started to suspect a palace coup... Could the US intelligence be capable of doing that? After all, there are so many inteligence services today and so many chiefs of services (and so little intelligence) that who can possibly manage and supervise all of them? I am afraid they put Cheney on a chain tied up to a pipe somewhere in a dark dungeon somewhere in an undisclosed location. Could you shed the light on it?
And what do you think of the ticket McCain - Lieberman?
#190878 fadel Sun Dec 30th 02:43:13 2007
hello Jacob ( kak dela)
my family is Palestinian family in the heart of darkness me and my family living very bad my daughter next week will be in Washington DC for a few days and then later to her university in south Carolina ( she lost first semester because she couldent leave Gaza ( the heart of darkness) in the previous months
you still remember my favorite book for J.conrad ( the heart of darkness)...now I am reading a fantastic book for the Russian writer soljgenetsen translated to Arabic
do you still writing your fanatic nonsense used to do before 5 years?
#190879 Jaron Sun Dec 30th 05:40:33 2007
Will, Maria,
Sorry about the sloppy edition. The above post was mine and not Maria's.
Jacob,
I once attended a lecture by a field grade US Army intelligence officer about how the US formulates national security strategy. The title was "herding cats" and the organizational charts were pretty byzantine. I wonder if the right hand and the left know what the other is doing sometimes.
#190880 Wael Sun Dec 30th 05:46:31 2007
Hi Mark
Ca va très bien, merci
Its been snowing on and off, nothing compared to the latest big hit though
#190881 Wael Sun Dec 30th 05:58:25 2007
Will,
I am not a moderator. But even if I were, why would anyone want to delete all of Joe's "stuff" ? Joe is doing an excellent job representing an important segment of the American society.
#190882 Joe Redefining TASS NewZ Sun Dec 30th 07:08:34 2007
Jacob writes:
I know you have access to insider info, so can you tell me where has Cheney gone?
I have no access to insider information. I used to be good friends with Dave Wurmser and his wife Meyrav, and years ago we used to spent hours discussing politics.
If you recall, Dick Cheney has always been in the background, so I don't really know what you're referring to. When did you ever see Cheney in the "lime light"?
I'm begginning to fear for his life, really.
Any friend of Israel should fear for Dick Cheney's life. So REALLY, I'll take your word for it.
Since this mysterious business with the NIE, no one has seen the vice-president. President himself has been heard from only maybe a couple of times... It is so strange that I started to suspect a palace coup... Could the US intelligence be capable of doing that?
See my response above. Don't be fooled. Dick Cheney has been the most powerful vice-president since this country was created.
www.usnews.com/usnews/news/articles/031013/13cheney_3.htm
After all, there are so many inteligence services today and so many chiefs of services (and so little intelligence) that who can possibly manage and supervise all of them?
Per the US Constitution, the vice president is the president of the Senate and a member of the cabinet. Most importantly, Dick Cheney is held in high regard by the President of the United States.
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vice_President_of_the_United_States
I am afraid they put Cheney on a chain tied up to a pipe somewhere in a dark dungeon somewhere in an undisclosed location. Could you shed the light on it?
These are just rumors. As I've stated before, please post a link to the actual pictures/website or try reading a different newspaper than TASS.
And what do you think of the ticket McCain - Lieberman?
I like Lieberman, but I don't trust McCain.
But, any Republican is better than Hillary except for Uncle Paul.
Hope my answers shed some light on the subject for you.
Regards,
Joe
#190883 ben Sun Dec 30th 07:48:15 2007
maria
assuming you can get to the web: can you give us an update on things in paki land? the elections are on/off? how is security? are the observers continuing with their work?
ta (and stay safe)
#190884 ben Sun Dec 30th 07:57:27 2007
now I am reading a fantastic book for the Russian writer soljgenetsen translated to Arabic
fadel
i just started august 1914.
enjoy the book.
#190885 ben Sun Dec 30th 09:11:42 2007
it is now official: failure to rape is now a war crime.
www.makor1.co.il/makor/Article.faces;.e34Mc3aTbNiTby0LaxmNbxqRchmMe0?articleId=27530&channel=1&subchannel=2
a hebrew univesity grad student has determined that the low rate of rape of palestinian women by israeli soldiers is because of the latters' racist attitudes.
#190886 ben Sun Dec 30th 13:00:39 2007
Pakistan's crucial January 8 parliamentary elections are likely to be postponed by up to three or four months following the assassination of opposition leader Benazir Bhutto, a spokesman for the ruling party said.
#190888 george Sun Dec 30th 17:31:48 2007
Others have already posted about Haaretz chief editor asking the U.S. to "rape" Israel, and, about one particular Hebrew U. doctoral candidate thesis that boggles the mind (even more so than otehr mind-boggling events in that part of the world).
So here is some more.
The real reason to capture Arab terrorists is to forestall the west-bank-settler-terrorists: www.israelnationalnews.com/SendMail.aspx?print=print&type=0&item=124741
Someone of the alleged experience and position as Rubinstein "denied knowing anything about the U.N. committee's bias", though apparently everyone else knew. If he is really that clueless, he has no business being an editor (or a journalist): jta.org/cgi-bin/iowa/news/print/20070904rubinsteinlondon.html
And to show how this same type of claim is so hypocritically used by others: www.jpost.com/servlet/Satellite?cid=1196847405272&pagename=JPost%2FJPArticle%2FPrinter
#190890 Joe Sad but True Sun Dec 30th 18:01:10 2007
George said:
one particular Hebrew U. doctoral candidate thesis that boggles the mind
George,
It has come to the point where Jews need to face the embarrasing fact: Christian Zionists care more about Israel than Jews do.
The group that sponsored the immigration is the International Fellowship of Christians and Jews, based in Chicago. It says it wants to help Jews flee such persecution. The group receives money from evangelical Christians.
Its founder, Rabbi Yehiel Eckstein, believes Iranian Jews face dangers, citing the words of Ahmadinejad, who has urged Israel's destruction but not by military means.
There has been great criticism of Ahmadinejad by Jews across the globe for his remarks about Israel, for the government's stance toward Israel, and for the regime's sponsorship of a recent Holocaust denial seminar.
Eckstein said immigrants received $10,000 each because they left behind possessions to go to Israel.
Noting the evangelical support from his group, Eckstein, in fact, believes it's no "coincidence" that the people came to Israel on Christmas Day, which Eckstein describes as "kind of a Christmas present to these folks from Christians in America who seek to tell Israel and the Jewish people that they're not alone."
www.cnn.com/2007/WORLD/meast/12/26/iran.israel.jews/index.html
#190891 george Sun Dec 30th 18:15:06 2007
Explosive humanitarian sugar: www.jpost.com/servlet/Satellite?c=JPArticle&cid=1198517238394&pagename=JPost%2FJPArticle%2FShowFull and www.jpost.com/servlet/Satellite?cid=1198517245928&pagename=JPost%2FJPArticle%2FShowFull
This is allegedly Bin-Laden's first directly-named threat against Israel: www.washingtontimes.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20071230/FOREIGN/369425087/1001
#190892 ben Sun Dec 30th 18:33:35 2007
It has come to the point where Jews need to face the embarrasing fact: Christian Zionists care more about Israel than Jews do.
Not exactly. Christian zionists care more about israel than anti-zionists jews do. not such a big discovery joe.
#190893 Joe Facing the Facts Sun Dec 30th 19:19:38 2007
Christian zionists care more about israel than anti-zionists jews do. not such a big discovery joe
Ben -
I agree, Christian Zionists DO care more about Israel than anti-Zionist Jews do. It goes without saying.
But I still stand by my assertion that "Chritian Zionist care more about Israel than Jews do."
I believe more Chritians visit Israel than Jews do, give more money to Israel than Jews do, and show more support for Israel in American politics than Jews do.
Now, I have no hard numbers proving this (I do have a few links that touch on it), however, if one is abreast of the issues like I am, I think it is fair to say that we are seeing a decrease in the connection between the Jewish diaspora and Israel, and an INCREASE in the connection between Christian America and Israel.
I don't know about you, but I find this quite embarrasing, especially now as Israeli and Jewish anti-Zionism is increasing as well.
IMHO Ben, we Jews are being surpassed by Christians as the bearers of Zionism.
IMHO, if it were not for Christian Zionism, Israel would have no support in congress, and Israel would be negotiating with Hamas regarding a one-state solution.
www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=14972371
www.jpost.com/servlet/Satellite?pagename=JPost%2FJPArticle%2FShowFull&cid=1195546700182
When Israel’s tourism industry was at a low point between 2000 and 2003 due to the Palestinian War and terrorism, Christian tourists visited Israel in numbers that were sometimes greater than that of the Jewish community.
www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/Zionism/christianzionism.html
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christian_Zionism
#190894 ben Sun Dec 30th 19:40:20 2007
I believe more Chritians visit Israel than Jews do, give more money to Israel than Jews do, and show more support for Israel in American politics than Jews do
without numbers the above is meaningless. there are billions of christians and a few million jews. there are some 70,000,000 american fundies and a few million jews who really care about israel.
I think it is fair to say that we are seeing a decrease in the connection between the Jewish diaspora and Israel, and an INCREASE in the connection between Christian America and Israel.
you're making an omlet, a huge one. the discussion started because of a paper written by some israeli grad student. you claimed that jews (general group) care less about israel than christian zionists (a very specific group). now you are talking about non-zionist diaspora jews (a general group) and comparing them to fundie christians.
assimilation of american jewry is no secret and along with the assimilation comes a lessening of their ties to israel.
and your last point about tourism does not prove much. those christians who came during the intifada were the fanatic supporters. there were also fanatic jewish supporters who came. but in both group the regular folks did not come.
maybe you american jews are being surpassed, but not me or my hevrei. my wife's nephew who just finished officer training in egoz is not being surpassed by some baptist in alabama.
#190896 Will Happy New Year Sun Dec 30th 22:29:34 2007
Thats correct Steve,
You don't seem to know anything about why the Madrid Social Forum for a Just Peace in the Middle East, a social grass roots based forum, was destroyed by interference from the Spanish Government. You appear to be comparing this to Arab Israeli diplomatic relations when you point out that at the Organization for Security and Cooperation in Europe's Mediterranean Seminar recently convened in Tel Aviv, most of the invited Arab delegations chose to stay home.
Well, Boo Hoo.
My point is that Social organisations at a grass roots level cannot have meetings in democratic Spain without some Pro-Bush, speudo-Zionist Cabal being forced on the forum at the last minute, by the Spanish Government no less.
If the pro-War elements of Israels and Spain's governments did not agree with a meeting on peace and solidarity to be held between Palestinian and Israeli groups all they had to do was keep their Facist Authoritarian noses out of it. It's their democratic right, you know? Just like the Arabs not giving a hoot about your Security Organisation cooperation thingy. It's a democratic right not to attend a meeting if you so wish.
Its a violation of free speach to interfere with the agenda of a meeting that has clearly predefined parameters and principles in order to impose a contradictory set of principles upon that forum.
In short , it stinks, Steve.
#190897 Steve Ganot steve.ganot@gmail.com Mon Dec 31st 00:11:36 2007
Will: You don't seem to know anything about why the Madrid Social Forum for a Just Peace in the Middle East, a social grass roots based forum, was destroyed by interference from the Spanish Government.
Correct, I don't. And when you asked "why the Palestinian delegation to an NGO meeting [you didn't bother telling us what NGO meeting] in Spain (the country) had to cancel...", I told you, "I don't know anything about this".
I see now that your question already contained within it your own answer, "due to colaborations between the government of Spain (the country) and post - Zionist propaganda organisations that sought to overcome the agenda of the meeting", which makes me wonder why you asked in the first place.
Will: You appear to be comparing this to Arab Israeli diplomatic relations when you point out that at the Organization for Security and Cooperation in Europe's Mediterranean Seminar recently convened in Tel Aviv, most of the invited Arab delegations chose to stay home.
I was not comparing as I didn't know anything about the Madrid meetings. I still don't know much about them.
Will: My point is that Social organisations at a grass roots level cannot have meetings in democratic Spain without some Pro-Bush, speudo-Zionist Cabal being forced on the forum at the last minute, by the Spanish Government no less.
Yeah, that must be the real story -- the Zapatero government insisted on the participation of a "Pro-Bush, speudo-Zionist [whatever that means] Cabal". Sure. From what I read, the offending Israeli organizations that the Palestinian delegation couldn't possibly meet with included Peace Now and the Peres Center for Peace.
Boo Hoo. Zzzzzzzzzzzz
Will: If the pro-War elements of Israels and Spain's governments did not agree with a meeting on peace and solidarity to be held between Palestinian and Israeli groups all they had to do was keep their Facist Authoritarian noses out of it. It's their democratic right, you know?
Take it up with the Spanish government.
Will: Just like the Arabs not giving a hoot about your Security Organisation cooperation thingy.
Now you seem to be comparing them -- that is, comparing what was apparently supposed to be a head-in-the-sand NGO-fest pretending to discuss a "just" peace without any Zionist or mainstream-Israeli participation, with Arab-Israeli diplomatic relations.
And it isn't my Security Organisation cooperation thingy, it is yours. That is, it is part of the Organization for Security and Co-operation in Europe, of which Ireland is a member, while Israel is only a "cooperating partner".
And it looks to me like Arabs who boycotted the meetings didn't give a hoot about either one.
Will: It's a democratic right not to attend a meeting if you so wish.
That's correct -- and just as true about Madrid as it is about Tel Aviv.
Will: Its a violation of free speach to interfere with the agenda of a meeting that has clearly predefined parameters and principles in order to impose a contradictory set of principles upon that forum.
Obviously, that's not what the Spanish hosts thought they were doing. If you have a problem with whatever power they have to invite participants and set the agenda, take it up with them.
Will: In short , it stinks, Steve.
Boo hoo.
#190898 Jacob To Fadel Mon Dec 31st 01:55:15 2007
hello Jacob ( kak dela)
Fadel
Vot zhiv poka esche. Spasibo. I am glad you and your family are intact. It must be not so easy over there.
my family is Palestinian family in the heart of darkness me and my family living very bad
Fadel, do you still live in Gaza? I am not trying to pry into your life, but can I ask you: what keeps you there?
my daughter next week will be in Washington DC for a few days and then later to her university in south Carolina ( she lost first semester because she couldent leave Gaza ( the heart of darkness) in the previous months
I am happy for your daughter. Hope she'll stay here. Gaza is not the most suitable place for a Jewish girl to live in. If you are bringing up your kids only as a Palestinian, then they are losing half of their identity, heritage and culture which should belong to them by right, namely, Jewish-Ashkenazi-Russian.
you still remember my favorite book for J.conrad ( the heart of darkness)...now I am reading a fantastic book for the Russian writer soljgenetsen translated to Arabic
Yes, I do. As for Solzhenitsyn, just keep it mind that he is a Russian nationalist, which means he is an anti-Semite, i.e. anti-Jewish. All Russian problems are the fault of Jews according to him. By the way, can't you read it in Russian? It's hard for me to imagine Russian literature in Arabic...
do you still writing your fanatic nonsense used to do before 5 years?
You judge for yourself. And what about the rockets to kill Jewish children in Israel, are they still launching them?
#190899 Will Pass the tissue issue. Mon Dec 31st 01:59:42 2007
Steve,
Round here we have a saying, it pertains to one's position in a debate when one knows nothing, as is your position in this instance, it goes: Say nothing 'til ye hear more.
You apparently , know no more than I do.
I see now that your question already contained within it your own answer
Yes, that was my answer. When I posed the question I was hoping to "hear more" from someone in Spain (the Country) as there are allegedly contributors from that country lurking in the edges here , on this grass roots , NGO forum.
I do think that you are getting it right when you assert that my rhetorical answer must be the real story -- i.e. : The Spanish government insisted on the participation of a Pro-Bush, speudo-Zionist Cabal which included Peace Now and the Peres Center for Peace.
You go on to wonder how there could be a "just" peace without any Zionist or mainstream-Israeli participation
I know what mainstream Israeli opinion is but what is Zionist (whatever that means) opinion ? Are you under the impression that both Israeli mainstream and Zionist (WTM) influence on a non-governmental social forum regarding peace in Palestine will be necessary in order to gain a consensus at that forum?
I must remember to consider your opinion next time I see people attend a demonstration against police brutality to which the government have invited the riot squad in order to help set the agenda.
Obviously, that's not what the Spanish hosts thought they were doing.
Obviously the people who orgainised the meeting did and took offense at being told how to conduct their free speech.
What can I say ? Perhaps that's just what is acceptable now on a grass roots forum such as this .. boo hoo.