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#192210 ben Thu Feb 28th 11:17:32 2008
jaron
if a border was going to be opened i would like to see the "sea and air borders" opened. then the question would not be the palestinian-egyptian relations but the palestinian-world relations. however that is not likely to happen any time soon.
#192212 Will Thu Feb 28th 15:17:12 2008
I guess that since Hitler won a democratic election, the west should have just done whatever Germany wanted, by that logic. Since the US freely elected Bush, then you have right to oppose US policy either.
Jaron,
The jury will have to remain out on whether Bush came to power legitimately or not. But he's in and theres not much anyone can do about getting him out until the elections. But it is a healthy democracy that allows for open opposition to government Policy, though dissent and protest. The fact that its not practiced very widely by Americans is a poor reflection on them not their democracy.
This is different than the Iraqi or Serbian or Venezuelan government undertaking the instigation of insurgencies or coups in the US to topple the government. Or the imprisoning of politicians or the collective punishment of the American people through bombing or embargo in order to get Bush out. That's just criminal and would never wash in the world of whities. We do that to them they dont do it to us.
Hitler, we do know, came to power not through a straight majority vote but through subterfuge and political skullduggery similar to that used to bar Hamas from taking control of government including the imprisonment of opposition politicians.
Hamas were elected fair and square, you are making excuses from Hitler to the NeoCons to bar them from representing the people, when in fact they have a purer right to govern than any of the goons you have chosen to compare them to.
#192216 Jaron annoyance Thu Feb 28th 17:07:03 2008
Will, et. al.
Someone seems to be impersonating me. 192213 and 192215 were not written by me.
Editors,
can you please delete those posts?
#192217 deleted
Jaron no mocking religious beliefs
#192219 Wael Thu Feb 28th 18:47:39 2008
Again, Jaron speaks a fantasy of an existing Palestinian state and asks how come no Jews are living there. When asked where does that "unoccupied" state exists, he points out the "Palestinian population centers" of ramallah and Khan Youniss . So the question is "how come there's no Jews living in the Palestinian population centers (really really nice euphemism I must repeat
) "and ignores the hundred of thousands of Jews living in what is internationlly recognized as "Palestinian Occupied Territories". The GOI moves hundred of thousands of its civilians into land acquired by war, decides how long to keep them, when to evacuate them, when to move them back in , all in violation of international law and Jaron asks why there's no Jews in the "Palestinian population centers" not only that, but he considers this sophistry as a "knock out question" and adds "there's no Jews because they were all murdered" Jaron asks the question and answer it himself , all in a world were "Palestinian population centers" are as much sovereign and "unoccupied" as Jewish population centers of Tel-Aviv.
#192221 Wael Thu Feb 28th 21:38:30 2008
It is politically incorrect to de-humanize Arabs (or any other nation for that matter) . If you say "Palestinians are not humans" few will take this racist statement seriously. You would rightly be referred to as a racist. No one here is saying that Palestinians are not humans, God forbid, where not racists. All what we're saying is they have this "cultural trait" of "blowing their children" seeking "72 virgins" its cultural we insist, we're not racists after all, its cultural like drinking beer and eating falafel.
#192222 Rudy the Kohen Thu Feb 28th 23:54:42 2008
Shalom to all Forumchiks - Jews,non-Jews and in-between!
Still dicussing Deir Yassin?
By the way,number of virgins (72) is not in the Quran,this number appears in some other-post Quranic- writings.Quran talks about the virgins without specifying the number.
#192225 Jaron Fri Feb 29th 00:47:49 2008
Wael,
You refer to Jews in the WB (no longer in Gaza). Those Jews live under IDF protection across the green line. Take away that protection and at best they will be ethnically cleansed and murdered at worst. This applies even if they have been born there for 2-3 generations now. That is more what I refer to. I don't know if that is "knock out" question , but is certainly is a qualitative disparity on a cultural level between the parties here.
As to culture, dehumanization and the like: It is not my intent to insult any particular religion. Heck, I have strong criticism of Judaism in some ways if you care to hear them. My point is that yes, everyone is human (whether their skin be black, white, orange or purple striped), but it is culture that determines what all those ordinary, equal under G-d, people will do. That means Jews for the most part will not be suicide bombers (no matter how dire the situation). Palestinian culture DOES quite clearly embrace and foster that particular tactic, as evinced by:
1. A sophisticated recruitment program
2. State pensions for the families of shaheeds
3. Communal praise for such actions
4. A "training up" program to prepare one for this
5. An organized network of facilitators with safehouses, equipment, transport, disguises and the like.
There can be argument over whether Islam approves this or not. I am far from a Muslim scholar (or even a Jewish one for that matter) to say one way or not. I have read things by Muslim scholars that argue both for an against the permissibility of this tactic. But what is clear is that people have blown up buses in Tel Aviv and London acting on what they sincerely believed was an action approved by their faith. The difference is that the BBC calls them "militants" when the bus is full of Jews and "terrorists" when the commuters are the British public.
That is a glaring example of cultural difference as it relates to this conflict.
The point I am trying to communicate (maybe not so clearly 
, but I am trying as best I can, is that there are two disparities at work here:
1. difference in ultimate "end state" intentions between Palestinian nationalism and Zionism
2. difference in power. I define power holistically to include diplomatic, economic, demographic, religious, military, political, media, academic and several other factors. You guys seem to focus only the military and essentially say that since the IDF has some control on the ground, that is all that matters. That is not the case. Israel may have a military edge, but that military edge CAN'T BE USED in the way it would if the shoe were on the other foot. Most importantly, you guys ignore that all of the OTHER elements of power (holistically defined) are going AGAINST Israel. This is why you never hear about Tibet or Kurdistan at the UN, but Israel is a front page item.
That is as clear as I can communicate it. Do you see what I mean?
#192227 Jaron culture Fri Feb 29th 05:11:18 2008
Wael,
cc: Will
Culture covers a broad range of things, from great beer in Ireland to little beer in Saudi Arabia. Or too much pornography in the western cultural model to a more socially conservative approach from your end. Or shall we say a different way of expressing dissent over cartoons than the Dutch normally do. This includes mundane things like food (shwarma or potatoes), music (the oud or the electric guitar and the hip-hop rapper). What I am concerned about here is how Palestinian nationalist culture addresses the "other" compared to how Zionism does in terms of this conflict. That is one disparity that Will seems to miss on that whole "IDF beating up powerless Palestinians" thing.
Jews are not Palestinians or vice versa and they see this differently at a cultural, not just a political, level.
#192228 Efraim Narrow Focus Fri Feb 29th 08:08:55 2008
Will,
Like many pro-Arab and pro-Palestinian advocates you spend just about all of your time focussed on Israel and Israeli actions. This leads to a rather distorted view of the entire Middle East. I found this particularly to be the case when you wrote:
"The Arab Governments can not be said to be treating the Palestinians in their countries "just as badly" as the Israeli Occupation regime. They dont summarily execute and imprison them en masse without charge or evidence. They dont besiege them and stop food , power and medical supplies getting to them. The Arab governments didnt ethnically cleanse 800,000 of them from their homes sending them into exile for the next 60 years. The Arab governments did not build a wall across their farmlands bisecting villages and separating families and communities. Nor did they overturn the results of a democratic election and imprison the elected officials in order that they could have no political representation. Subsequently forcing the people to pursue armed resistance which could be used to justify a cycle of attacks against them."
The Israelis treat the Palestinians quite a bit better both within Israel and when Israel imposed a military government on the occupied territories than did the Arab governments towards their resident Palestinians or towards Palestinians in territories that the Arab governments exercised some form of military occupation.
Under Arab rule Palestinians suffered massacre and destruction to a far greater extent than the Israelis ever managed to inflict upon them. Just as one example among many that could be cited, Will, I'm sure you remember Sabra and Shatilla where a unit of Christian Philangist militia massacred several hundred Palestinians. You have written about this many times. However what you seem to be unaware of is that Sabra refugee camp was completely destroyed a few years later by the Syrian army during the "War of the Camps". The numbers of Palestinians killed in the latter incident was far higher than the number killed by the Philangists but because the Syrian army was involved you don't seem to notice that it happened. So when you write, "They dont summarily execute and imprison them en masse without charge or evidence. They dont besiege them and stop food , power and medical supplies getting to them", you are simply revealing that you have little or no idea about what has happened to the Palestinians in the Arab world. Or, if you know, you don't care.
Efraim
#192233 Wael Fri Feb 29th 19:29:42 2008
What I am concerned about here is how Palestinian nationalist culture addresses the "other" compared to how Zionism does in terms of this conflict. That is one disparity that Will seems to miss on that whole "IDF beating up powerless Palestinians" thing.
Jaron
1) Zionism was born in Europe, a continent away from Palestine, with the explicit goal of establishing a state on another continent, do you really believe that Zionism holds any moral high ground on the "other" whose society have been literally destroyed as a result ?
2) If anyone is missing disparities, it is you. You're missing the disparity between a home made rocket and the slaughter happening in Gaza as we speak. You're missing the disparity between an assassination and the killing of 30,000 and the destruction of a whole city. You're missing the disparity between the kidnapping of two soldiers and killing of 1400 civilians- third of whom are children under 9. Israel is swimming in the blood of its neighbors who are subjected to the most lethal, most effective, and most sophisticated weapons humanity ever produced , and you believe Zionism holds a moral high ground because there 's no Jewish suicide bombers ?
#192234 Will Fri Feb 29th 19:53:50 2008
Wael,cc Jaron,
What the hell is the difference between Baruch Goldstein and any suicide bomber. He Accepted certain death in order to kill 29 Arabs and injure 150. And is a hallowed here in his martyrdom.
Truth is, if things started to go against the settlers you could expect to see a hundred Baruchs a month.
#192235 Wael Fri Feb 29th 20:16:01 2008
Andy,
There was a time when more Arabs were around but even then this house resembled more a "Jewish American - Jewish Israeli encounter".
Oh, and FYI, I'm not Palestinian.
#192236 Efraim No difference Fri Feb 29th 20:50:32 2008
Will,
What the hell is the difference between suicide bombers and Baruch Goldstein. They accept certain death in order to kill a number of Jews and injure more. And they are hallowed in the PA in their martyrdom.
Just to be clear on this, I think that there is absolutely no difference between Baruch Goldstein and suicide bombers. Both are committing crimes against humanity and both are working against peace between the Israeli and Palestinian peoples. The only difference is that Baruch Goldstein was roundly condemned by mainstream Israeli opinion and officialdom while the suicide bombers are glorified and presented to the Palestinians by their mainstream leadership as models to be emulated.
Efraim
#192237 Jaron Fri Feb 29th 20:53:15 2008
Will,
Baruch Goldstein's crime does not enjoy any more than very marginal support in the Jewish world. There is a substantial stream of thought among the neighbors (whether is correct under Islam or not) supporting suicide bombing.
I have a family visit for the next few days, so I will be off line for a bit. Sorry about any delayed replies.
Jaron
#192238 eugene Fri Feb 29th 21:02:46 2008
What the hell is the difference between Baruch Goldstein and any suicide bomber
the difference is that there is only one baruch goldstein.
there have been no baruch goldsteins blowing themselves up in iraq, the uk, bali, spain, pakistan, afghanistan, the us, indonesia, jordan, argentina, turkey, etc: all these acts have been carried out by radicalized muslims.
#192239 Wael Fri Feb 29th 22:34:15 2008
the difference is that there is only one baruch goldstein.
There is no difference between baruch goldstein and any suicide bomber. Just as there is no difference between a suicide bomber and one that blows a whole village with its inhabitant (except that the later became a PM), just as there's no difference with one who intentionally send a one tone bomb into a residential building , or one that allows half drunk, half drugged militiamen man with a vengeance into a sieged camp of defenseless civilians, or one that carpet bomb a whole city into total destruction killing 30,000 in the process, or one that order the bombing of a UN refugee camps that stood on maps for years, or one that bombs an ambulance killing a family of 9 because the driver is a "suspected Hizbollah", and the list goes on and on...... Arab blood spilled by Israel can turn Israeli streets to rivers and you guys have the chuptzah to claim a moral high ground because you kill from high above with buttons and plasma screens ?
#192241 eugene Fri Feb 29th 23:16:37 2008
well said wael.
shabbat shalom
(back to my plasma screen now...)
#192242 Will Jaron Sat Mar 1st 01:29:01 2008
Baruch Goldstein's crime does not enjoy any more than very marginal support in the Jewish world.
Prove it.
#192244 Wael Sat Mar 1st 04:27:46 2008
33 Gazans, including five children were killed today, and a Nazi Israeli official threatens Palestinians of a bigger "Shoah". But rest assured, there's no Jewish suicide bombers.
#192245 Wael The world is crazy Sat Mar 1st 04:32:10 2008
Israeli PR machine full steam ahead.
Israeli and American celebrities rallied this week at a benefit concert in Los Angeles for the rocket-weary people of Sderot.
The participants included movie stars Sylvester Stallone, Jon Voight and Valerie Harper, comedian Larry Miller and Israeli singer Ninet Tayeb.
Teenagers from Sderot were flown over for the concert in an bid to highlight the daily suffering that Gaza militants cause through Qassam attacks on the Negev town.
http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/959308.html]
#192246 Will Sat Mar 1st 05:09:18 2008
Jaron, sorry old chap. I can prove it myself.
Palestine Center for Policy and Survey Research
www pcpsr org/survey/polls/2001/p3a.html
\"The total sample size of this poll is 1357 from Palestinians 18 years and older, of which 851 in the West Bank and 506 in the Gaza Strip. The margin of error is + 3% and the non-response rate is 3%. . . . the overwhelming majority (ranging between 81%-87%) does not view Palestinian attacks against Israeli civilians or politicians as terrorism . . . 82% does not agree that the killing of 21 Israeli youths by a Palestinians in a Tel Aviv night club was an act of terror.\"
Statement of Prime Minister Rabin
www mfa gov.il/MFA/Foreign%20Relations/Israels%20Foreign%20Relations%20since%201947/1992-1994/161%20Statement%20by%20Prime%20Minister%20Rabin%20on%20the%20Murde
Statement by Prime Minister Rabin on the Murders in Hebron, 25 February 1994.
\"A loathsome, criminal act of murder was committed today at a site holy to both Jews and Arabs in Hebron.
The Prime Minister and Defence Minister, government ministers and citizens of the State of Israel severely condemn this terrible murder of innocent people, which occurred during Ramadan prayer services.
On behalf of the government and myself, I wish to express our sorrow over the incident and extend condolences to the families of those who were killed and :o the Palestinians people, and wish a full and speedy recovery to the wounded,\"
Old chap, your New York Times says 3.6% of Israeli Jews praised Goldstein and 10% refused to condemn him. That is a majority to me!
query nytimes com/gst/fullpage.html?res=9B07E4DC123FF932A35757C0A962958260
\"A poll in Israel found 3.6 percent praising Baruch Goldstein and 10 percent refusing to condemn the massacre in light of Arab terror against Jews.\"
Jaron, only 66% of Israelis wanted to outlaw extremist groups like Kach! Only 66%!
Associated Press, 6 March 1994
\"In a poll by the daily Yedioth Ahronot after the massacre, 66% of those responding favored outlawing extremist groups such as Kach, to which Goldstein belonged.\"
Jaron, another poll showed that only 77% of Israelis strongly condemned or condemned Goldstein\'s massacre (52% + 22% = 77%)
1 March 1994
Agence France-Presse
\"A majority of Israelis condemned the Hebron mosque massacre in an opinion poll published Tuesday but more than 14 percent refused to do so.
Nearly 52 percent strongly condemned the carnage and 27 percent condemned it, but 11 percent said it had to be \"understood against the background of Arab terror against Jews\".\"
#192247 Will Sat Mar 1st 05:13:34 2008
Jaron, old chap, I have one more article for you. From the Guardian. That\'s one of your favorite newspapers.
ISRAELIS DEPLORE MASSACRE BUT DRAW DIFFERENT LESSONS
1 March 1994
The Guardian
\"The overwhelming reaction to the killing of more than 40 Muslim worshippers last Friday, judging from press comment and random conversations, has been composed largely of anger, revulsion and fear.
The anger is for the most part directed against Baruch Goldstein, who emptied 31 2 magazines of high-velocity bullets into the crowded mosque at the Tomb of the Patriarchs. Most papers have described him as \"deranged\" or \"insane\", and all have condemned what he did.\"
Jaron, old chap, I don\'t think I have ever once admitted I\'m wrong. I admit I was wrong this time. I\'m very sorry.
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