#193048 ben Mon Jun 30th 18:22:40 2008
Police to probe irregularities in Kadima primaries process (Israel Radio)
that's fast. they haven't had any primaries, the first one was just announced a week ago and already they are under investigation.
#193049 Jaron Mon Jun 30th 19:07:59 2008
In 193047 Will wrote: "There are many reasons Steve, why Israel in my pinion falls far short of what we would generally expect in a democracy. Chief among them being in the areas of equal rights for all citizens and equal access to power for all citizens equal services and equal provision of security etc."
Wow. There are any number of democracies out there with similar problems, that are still considered democratic. Heck, I say the Palestinians are democratic and they have gone so far as to allow no living Jewish voters in spaces they control. That is a far sight worse descrimination in jobs and municipal services.
Will wrote: "But even when it comes to voting it is clear that not all people living in the territory controlled by Israel are entitled to a vote."
You are talking about the WB and Gaza? Gaza isn't controlled by Israel. You may recall a certain recent exodus from there. Now rockets are being launched at Sderot from the ruins of what were until recently Jewish towns. That Gazan electorate chose Hamas in open elections. Once Hamas fully consolidates its hold, I doubt if it will ever lose a Gazan election again. Even if they have to throw their fellow Palestinians off rooftops to get the point across on how to vote. I am sure you will complain about that. The WB also had elections, and freely chose the current Palestinian leadership in the form of President Abbas. There is no reason for a Palestinian in Nablus to vote for the Israeli government, just as someone living in Tel Aviv shouldn't be voting in a Palestinian election. Those areas fall under the purview of what will hopefully be different democratic polities in the near future.
#193050 Dan Israeli 4 Peace Mon Jun 30th 23:18:20 2008
Meanwhile, back on the planet earth, of the approximately 9 million residents of Palestine/Israel, 4 million have absolutely no civil or political rights at all in the only existing state. Of those holding Israeli citizenship (5 million) about one million (20%) have formal voting rights and access to courts, but in virtually every other area of measure - most key - land rights - Palestinian citizens of Israel are made to feel everyday that they are just not welcome.
And of course of the 4 million Israeli Jews, their is systemic internal discrimination, mostly against those not of European descent, but that's a whole other post.
That's Israeli "democracy", folks.
#193051 Will Forum Competition Mon Jun 30th 23:45:46 2008
Jaron, see can you spot the real Headline out of the Five listed below.
Democracy downgraded in an effort to curb Anti-Semitism :
I see your expectations for your prople are quite low in your beloved Homeland. Even I have higher aspirations for Israeli democracy than you seem to have. I dont know any other government in the developed West that would accept the Israeli model as democracy, if it were installed in their own countries that is. Its easy enough to accept Israel's "democracy lite" when it's not their problem.
Palestinians setup three seperate countries in Eretz Yisrael:
Was that two seperate elections you noted. One in the Palestinian country of West Bank and the other in the Palestinian country, Gaza? I didnt know they had two countries, I suppose three if you count Jordan and I have no doubt that you do. i only counted one election with one outcome - a Hamas majority throughout the overall result.
Palestinians have a right to resist occupation and illegal imprisonment
Lots of Israeli towns are set up on the ruins of Palestinian towns and villages and from there Israel launches attacks against the inhabitants who they expelled from those towns who now are forced to live in the world's biggest outdoor prison in Gaza.
Mexican settlers redeem north America:
When 70 million Mexicans violently force their way into the US and are being governed from Mexico and the Americans are also being governed by Mexico with the Mexican Army knocking American heads at the end of each street I will support your campaign to also get a vote in the Mexican elections. With your low expectations for democracy you should be over the moon with that.
Settlers are biggest impediment to peace :
The Palestinians in Nablus dont want a goddam vote in the Israeli elections.And they would be eternally grateful if those who want to be governed by Israeli politicians moved to Israel. Its the way things normally work , dont you know?
#193052 ben Mon Jun 30th 23:47:11 2008
The traditional Jewish answer is yes, take them prisoner as they are not a current threat. The human answer is to rip their head off.
so i would prefer to be jewish than human.
#193053 Joe Feelings Tue Jul 1st 00:14:45 2008
Dan said:
Of those holding Israeli citizenship (5 million) about one million (20%) have formal voting rights and access to courts...Palestinian citizens of Israel are made to feel everyday that they are just not welcome
Dan -
If the Israeli government passed a law that forced Israelis to make Palestinian citizens of Israel feel everyday that they are welcome, would that satisfy you?
Or is the "access to voting rights and access to courts" just not enough?
#193054 Jaron votes? Tue Jul 1st 01:54:12 2008
Will,
So how do you feel about Israeli citizens being able to vote in Palestinian elections? Maybe we can add Likud, Molodet, Labor, Kadima and Peace Now to Hamas and Fatah on the slate? Just imagine. A Palestinian legislative assembly forced to accept actual Jewish representatives in formulating laws, thanks to the good electorate of Tel Aviv. Such folks might vote against enlightened Palestinian laws that give the death penalty to Arabs who sell land to Jews. The horror!
My point here is that I seriously doubt if the Palestinians would accept such a thing. Likewise, Israelis shouldn't have to stomach a slate that includes your Hamasnik "resistance" heroes.
That is on the practical side. Now for the larger theoretical legal framework. You consider the WB to be occupied territory. I don't consider Gaza to be occupied anymore, but I believe you do if I understand correctly. People in occupied territories have a number of rights under International Law, but one of those rights is NOT to vote in elections for the occupying power. When the US occupied Japan after WW2, Yoshi and Miyamoto in Tokyo didn't get to vote in US elections. Even by your OWN chosen set of rules (those governing occupied territories), Yusuf in Kalkilya does not get to vote for the Knesset. Instead he gets to vote for the PLA (Palestinian legislative assembly).
Will wrote: "Settlers are biggest impediment to peace"
Do you really believe that? How many Jewish "settlers" live in Gaza today? I use the word settler loosely, since some of those folks had been born under the same roof in Gaza for 3 generations. If the presence of living Jews on Palestinian land is such an obstacle to peace, then explain to me why there are rockets coming from Gaza in the COMPLETE ABSENCE of any settlers. Also, from 1948-67 there was not one living Jew in the WB, Gaza or East Jerusalem. This included the ethnic cleansing not of "settlers", but of centuries old Jewish communities that had been in situ long before Palestinian national identity even existed. Yet from 1948-67, there was no peace. So, explain to me why there was no peace even when Israel didn't occupy that territory, much less have a Jewish population base there. This "settlers cause the conflict" argument is specious bunkum. If it isn't, then I would like your answers to my two above stated points to prove otherwise.
Sure, the Jews will have to removed from a state of Palestine (either nicely by the GOI or with the Palestinians recreating Srebrenica) for a Palestinian state. Unlike Jews, the Palestinians won't tolerate the "other" among them. But that does NOT mean I agree in any way that settlers cause the conflict. The conflict is present because Israel exists in ANY borders and the neighbors cannot accept that (a minority grouping getting real freedom and independence) at any real cultural level.
Will wrote: "The Palestinians in Nablus dont want a goddam vote in the Israeli elections."
You are the one asserting that it is undemocratic if they don't get one, not me.
Will wrote: "And they would be eternally grateful if those who want to be governed by Israeli politicians moved to Israel."
That is pretty much a done deal. How many Jews live in Gaza now? How many Jews lived in the WB from 1948-67? Your favorite precious noble innocent victims don't have a good track record for allowing Jews to live among them if they have any control over the matter.
In 193052 ben wrote: "so i would prefer to be jewish than human."
Which speaks well for you in purely humanitarian terms. And underlines the basic qualitative difference between you and the neighbors. Whether good or bad (or a bit of both), that response is IMO the product of Jewish culture and history, just as the lynching of those 2 IDF reservists was the product of Palestinian culture and history. I forget who said it (maybe Ralph Peters?), but someone once wrote that culture is fate. That certainly applies in this instance.
#193055 Jaron Piece Now Tue Jul 1st 02:01:29 2008
In 193050 Dan wrote: "Meanwhile, back on the planet earth, of the approximately 9 million residents of Palestine/Israel, 4 million have absolutely no civil or political rights at all in the only existing state."
Because by your OWN standard (international law for occupied territories), the residents of occupied lands do NOT have a right to vote in Israeli elections. No more than a German in 1947 had a right to vote for a US senator. Is that so hard to understand?
Dan wrote: " Of those holding Israeli citizenship (5 million) about one million (20%) have formal voting rights and access to courts, but in virtually every other area of measure - most key - land rights - Palestinian citizens of Israel are made to feel everyday that they are just not welcome."
Which is a problem that I believe should be aggressively addressed in terms of better resource allocation. Many Israelis also think that way if what I read in various publications is correct.
Dan wrote: "That's Israeli "democracy", folks."
Nice critique. Now I want to hear your critique of Palestinian democracy that will not even tolerate a Jewish population base at all (a very few single collaborators excepted). Come on, Dan, lets hear your objections to that.
#193056 Will Jaron Tue Jul 1st 03:15:55 2008
Me: ..... those who want to be governed by Israeli politicians moved to Israel.
Jaron: That is pretty much a done deal.
When it's a Done Deal I'll join the Disney club too. You can keep "pretty and much" for the ladies.
I would like your answers to my two above stated points to prove otherwise.
What two points ?
#193057 \"Dan\" Why is Mark Klein calling himself \"Dan\"? Tue Jul 1st 04:51:45 2008
Why is Mark Klein calling himself \"Dan\"? Why is Mark Klein who loves so much he uses them in every posting pretending to be named \"Dan\"?
What is wrong with Mark Klein?
#193058 \"Dan\" Why is Mark Klein calling himself \"Dan\"? Tue Jul 1st 04:55:07 2008
The real \"Dan\", not crazy Mark Klein, wrote this:
80330 dan Mon Aug 27th 01:55:10 2001
walter,
you answered to as usual in your sentimental garbage.
Today Dov Rozman 57 was murdered by his \"friends\" arabs because he is a jew! He believed in \"peace\" with the arabs and got murdered.
Keep laying to yourself but 90% of the Israel jews know better and know that Israel is in war for SURVIVAL!
with disgust
dan.
#193059 Dominic dominic@mail.com Tue Jul 1st 10:05:29 2008
#193060 Steve Ganot steve.ganot@gmail.com Tue Jul 1st 10:19:48 2008
Will, I'm glad you don't feel insulted. No insult was intended. In my book, there is no shame in being the bastard child of rape. It's just a fact of life your country was born into, not something you could control or prevent.
Also, note that your country's bastard status is purely a matter of subjective perception, and itself a product of the culture and religion that were imported to your island by Daddy Britain.
In Jewish culture, there is no "bastard" status; the closest equivalent is called mamzerut, but a mamzer is the product of adultery by a married woman, or incest between close relatives. As far as we know, the isle of Eire was not married to someone else when it was seeded by Daddy Britain, which eliminates one possible source of mamzerut. If it were, Jewish legal authorities would go out of their way to assume that Daddy was the island's legal husband, and not the seed of British rape. In this case, however, considering the very close resemblance between Baby Ireland and Daddy Britain, that might be untenable.
Likewise, the close relationship between Daddy and Baby raises the question of incest -- the second source of mamzerut.
On the other hand, a mamzer can only be the product of two Jews. If Mommy or Daddy is not Jewish, Baby cannot be a mamzer.
And no need to pass my "concerns" to the people of Ireland. I'm not concerned. These days, you seem to be doing just fine.
Will: I'm not sure where this rape analogy of yours applies. It would appear that any cause giving rise to an effect is a rape giving birth to a bastard in your mind.
No.
Will: I am going on the basis that the offspring of the rape must be a third seperate entity. You know?
Yes. Daddy is Great Britain. Mommy is the island on which you live. The resulting baby is the Irish people and culture.
Will: ...not necessarily a bastard , mind, as the mother and father have now adopted it.
Again this perception is a product of your culture. Mamzerut, for example, would not be effected by adoption.
Will: Perhaps I misunderstand, could you try and develop your offensive "bastad of a rape" analogy in a more specific manner so I can get a better flavour of where the insult is supposed to be coming from?
The analogy -- yours, I believe, but definitely not mine -- is already overly developed, and I certainly mean no insult in using it. Just as, I'm sure, you meant no insult in calling Israel the bastard child of British imperialism, or something like that. My only point was to show that the analogy applies far more to your country than to mine. I think I've done that, but if you wish to discuss this further, maybe we should take it to www.Peace-Sith.net, the "Britain and Its Irish Bastard Child Encounter" forum.
#193061 Jaron Tue Jul 1st 14:01:42 2008
In 193056 Will wrote: "When it's a Done Deal I'll join the Disney club too. You can keep "pretty and much" for the ladies."
Do you seriously think the Palestinians are going to tolerate a Jewish population base in a state they control? When you get the state of Palestine, you will see it without Jews. Either Israel will remove them as nicely as possible or the Palestinians will reenect Srebrenica (with Jewish victims this time around).
Will wrote: "What two points?"
You contended that settlements/settlers are the real obstacle to peace and a cause of this conflict. I disagree. This is why:
1. From 1948-67 there was no Jewish population in Gaza, the WB or E. Jerusalem. This included the removal of Jewish populations that had lived in those area centuries before Palestinian national identity even existed. That is like saying the Irish are "settlers" in Dublin.
2. Gaza currently has no Jews either. Not even one settler lives there now. It doesn't seem so peaceful today.
Those are concrete examples of why I think settlements are just the pretext to go after an Israel that would be a target even if it was reduced to a 10 square mile section of the Negev desert. The real cause is the inability of the neighbors to accept Israel at an real cultural level. Settlements are an excuse. Take away the settlements and they would just find another excuse. My sense is that you would of course fall for that excuse, hook, line and sinker as well. IMO, the Palestinians could say that the color blue in the Israeli flag causes the conflict and I would fully expect you on this page 10 minutes later fulminating about how offensive the color blue is.
Anyway, my question to you is this: If settlements are the cause of this conflict, then explain to my why there was no peace from 48-67 or now when all the Jews have been expelled from Gaza.
#193062 Jaron Tue Jul 1st 14:09:55 2008
Steve,
RE "the bastard child of British imperialism"
Haven't you heard? Jews had no linkage at all in history, religion or population presence to Israel before Britain decided to create the idea that Israel is the Jewish homeland out of whole cloth. The Brits decided to create a colony and just picked folks who had no relation at all to the land at random and planted them there pretty much blindly.
Will,
Something like that?
#193063 Joe Tue Jul 1st 14:56:01 2008
Daniel Pipes' hits another home run:
The Islamist-Leftist Allied Menace
www.danielpipes.org/article/5720
#193064 george Tue Jul 1st 15:43:07 2008
He claims NIS 14 million is owed - but in exchange for what service?
www.jpost.com/servlet/Satellite?cid=1214726167899&pagename=JPost%2FJPArticle%2FShowFull
#193065 george Tue Jul 1st 16:12:51 2008
As a break from all this middle-east stuff, how about a peak at Venezuela. Seems they find the "Simpsons" to be inappropriate for children. So it has to be replaced by - "Baywatch Hawaii". Now there's a children's program!
ap.google.com/article/ALeqM5hCEsv_JQRaQ30MoXwQgBwgqESpQAD91KNI0G0
vivirlatino.com/2008/06/30/venezuelan-tv-channel-fined-for-airing-the-simpsons.php
#193068 george Tue Jul 1st 16:48:57 2008
Back to the saw. One wonders just what constitutes "state security" according to this Supreme Court judgement?
www.israelnationalnews.com/News/Flash.aspx/149189
As if the following isn't enough to qualify as "state security"?
www.upjf.org/actualitees-upjf/article-14452-145-7-al-dura-affair-faking-killing-melanie-phillips.html
(aside from the bad-faith-behaviour weeklystandard.com/Content/Public/Articles/000/000/015/284xawsb.asp )
Al-Dura became a poster boy for the Palestinian and Islamist war against Israel and the West. The day after the France 2 broadcast, the second intifada erupted in its full fury; according to the 2001 Mitchell report, the two events were directly connected. Twelve days later, a mob of Palestinians shouting, “Revenge for the blood of Mohammed al-Dura” lynched two Israeli army reservists and dragged their mutilated bodies through the streets of Ramallah.
When al-Qaeda decapitated the journalist Daniel Pearl, the video of this atrocity was punctuated with references to al-Dura. After -September 11 2001, Osama bin Laden said: “Bush must not forget the -image of Mohammed al-Dura.” Several Arab countries issued postage stamps with his picture. On Palestinian Authority TV and in its school books, al-Dura’s example is used to encourage other children to emulate his spirit of “sacrifice”.
And besides, isn't causing even one death sufficient reason to revoke a license? Nooooo - it can only be revoked for "national security"! This, in a country were A7 was treated in a manner that shames the meaning of democracy, foreign entities have such inaliable rights.
#193069 george Tue Jul 1st 17:47:23 2008
Just for those who like to read the fine print, a finely detailed analysis:
www.theaugeanstables.com/2008/06/19/derfner-tries-again-a-for-effort-c-for-analysis/
#193072 ben Tue Jul 1st 19:12:18 2008
george
the reporting on the dura case comes under the title of irresponsible, unprofessional, propaganda. that some folks chose to use that death as excuse for their terror and murder isn't the reporters responsibility. it the responsibility of the killers and terrorists.
#193074 george Tue Jul 1st 19:54:21 2008
ben
First.
The question here is not who is "responsible". The court is not being asked to imprison someone. The question is, what is the potential damage. Is the potential damage sufficient to warrant the removal of a press credential. You can't seriously tell me that the type of damage produced in the al-Dura case is not serious enough to warrant a national-level convern. As a different matter, the court's threshhold ("national") is absurd. Simply being "irresponsible, unprofessional, propaganda" (in your own words) is self-evidently sufficient to warrant the removal of press credentials. Press credentials are a privilege, not a right.
Second, and this is completely a different topic, I do hold them responsible for the consequences of their deeds. It is not like the conequences are unforseen. The tensions were already higher than "normal" even before they released that propoganda piece. They lend the French government's name (France 2 is on the government-owned network) to what they knew were unsupported claims that Israel shot them in cold blood.
#193075 ben Tue Jul 1st 20:11:51 2008
george
cc jaron/will
I do hold them responsible for the consequences of their deeds.
ok you do, i don't. you can only hold them responsible for the consequences if you don't hold the killers responsible for their actions. i choose the latter. i saw pictures of those soldiers who were lynched and i didn't take an m-16 into beit lehem and open fire. i don't give a damn what pictures people see. they're still expected to be in control of themselves. you, jaron and will all seem to be giving blank checks to people to act like rabid dogs once a few buttons are pushed.
#193078 Jaron Tue Jul 1st 21:41:04 2008
Ben,
Legal responsibility for criminal charges (in most US domestic law at least) is according to your standard. Did this named person do this named deed with his own hand on this day in violation of this law? But there is also a certain level of moral responsibility for having a reasonable expectation that ones actions will cause others to act a certain way, and still proceeding. In Rwandan genocide (stunning silence from Will and the western left on that one) the radio stations broadcast that one ethnic group should go out and kill the other group, which then happened. The guy in the radio studio may have never picked up a machete himself, but his incitement had concrete results that reasonably could have been anticipated. So did the radio announcer commit a crime?
#193079 Will Get real. Tue Jul 1st 22:10:08 2008
What a laugh, Peaceful calm Ben,
Thats why you were distraught by the blank cheque the IDF wrote themselves in Lebanon a couple of years back. What was that equation? couple of rockets and a raid led to the complete bombardment of a country the destruction of it's infrastructure 1200 people massacred , it goes on, and a million child killing landmines dropped on Lebanese sovereign territory. You really expressed your ire there. Matter of fact no matter how the IDF justify their bloodlust , your satisfied with the explanation and it's good enough for the terrorists.
#193081 eugene Tue Jul 1st 22:56:58 2008
this is boring (despite will being pleasantly amusing as always).
oh where are the old shaggy dog debates between steve and mike?
#193082 eugene Tue Jul 1st 23:01:16 2008
btw, steve-o, you are mistaken about will's fancies: the brits were "the dirty big hand reaching into palestine", but the rape was the jews doing palestine.
you see the brits were the hand, while the jewz were the...
#193091 Joe Wed Jul 2nd 06:24:14 2008
couple of rockets and a raid led to the complete bombardment of a country the destruction of it's infrastructure 1200 people massacred , it goes on, and a million child killing landmines dropped on Lebanese sovereign territory
Will -
How can we stop the JewZ?
#193094 ben Wed Jul 2nd 08:27:13 2008
So did the radio announcer commit a crime?
jaron
i am not a lawyer, but it is clear to me that there is a huge difference between between telling someone to go out and kill and broadcasting a report containing a false accusation.
#193095 ben Wed Jul 2nd 08:28:17 2008
What was that equation? couple of rockets and a raid
just because to you israelis being killed is not a serious matter doesn't mean that everyone agrees.