) Even if it were his idea to have the increase of around Baghdad and other areas that brought some doses of tranquility, I find quite an extravagant affirmation that Iraq is "safer" thanks to your boss, the UK and the GOI to add to the merry.
#190451 eugene Thu Nov 29th 22:55:48 2007
The way it works everywhere else.
LOL!
keep dreaming will...
#190452 ArticxSast tgedza46@mail.ru Thu Nov 29th 23:01:10 2007
#190454 Jacob Fri Nov 30th 03:37:38 2007
Efraim
The problem, Jacob, is that the only way to really know the degree of sincerety of the Palestinians in their desire for a peaceful state along side of Israel, is when that state comes into being.
This is one of those things I can’t believe adult people can be serious about. Efraim, do you know how they say: “Madame, if you have to ask, you can’t afford it”. The very idea of gambling with the existence of an entire state makes me dizzy. If you have to question the sincerity of your partner in anything, and infinitely more so in the question of war and piece, you already know the answer, however much you are into self-deception and wishful thinking. You take risks when start war, out of dire necessity or huge potential gains, but taking risks for peace simply does not parse. The grammar parser stops right there blinking and burning. Don’t you see the signals? With Egypt it was absolutely and totally different. Egypt received from Israel absolutely everything; it could not have gotten more had Israel capitulated. Egypt has no territorial or other claims to Israel. Egypt was and still is controlled its government. And Palestinians – well, what’s there to talk about? If the Israeli left wanted experiments it should have started with dogs, not survivors of the Shoah. How can one be as presumptuous as they are to gamble the fate of a nation, is beyond me. Who gave them this right? Just one or two extra seat in the Knesset does it?
There is no perfect test for each side's sincerety until the terms of any agreement are implemented. There is one test that may be an indicator of what the Palestinian leadership is still thinking. That is the question of the right of return. As long as they are pushing for that in any form, other than return to a Palestinian Arab state, my estimation is that they are still more interested in the destruction of the Jewish state than they are in the construction of their own Palestinian Arab state.
Exactly. But what happens if the US succeeds in squeezing both Israel and Palestinians to agree on some ambiguous statement regarding this issue, just as ambiguous as Oslo was and the whole infamous business with the PLO charter? This way the formal preconditions will be fulfilled and the paperwork will be available for signing. This can open the gates of hell, with each side insisting on its own interpretation of the document, only with the other side in an incomparably better situation than today. Do you still believe in the wisdom of Israeli leaders-turned-gamblers? I would not.
It is the same problem that we had with the Egyptian peace treaty. Will the Egyptians honor the peace treaty or take advantage of the return of the Sinai and use it as a strategic base for a continuation of the conflict with Israel? In the case of Egypt, the chance we took paid off reasonably well. We took the same kind of chance with Arafat during the Oslo peace process and to put it mildly, it didn't pay off.
There is no perfect test for each side's sincerety until the terms of any agreement are implemented. There is one test that may be an indicator of what the Palestinian leadership is still thinking. That is the question of the right of return. As long as they are pushing for that in any form, other than return to a Palestinian Arab state, my estimation is that they are still more interested in the destruction of the Jewish state than they are in the construction of their own Palestinian Arab state.
#190455 Joe America is Safer thanks to Fri Nov 30th 05:23:42 2007
Maria asked:
A candid question : A "little safer" since when? what is safer now? Can you please explain?
Maria -
Hello, how are you? Long time, no see! Hope all is well with you.
OK, here's my list:
1.) Libya opened up here WMD program to the Brits and the Yanks.
Check 1 for "safer".
2.) Saddam Hussein is thrown out of office and into a spider hole, then to the gallows.
Check 1 for "safer".
3.) Taliban, al-Queda and their training bases are thrown out of Afghanistan.
Check another 1 for "safer".
4.) US, French, and German pressure on Iran at the UN against Iran's desire for weapons grade uranium.
Check another 1 for "safer".
5.) Ability to sideline the axis of rejectionists (Iran, Hamas, Hezbollah, and Syria) due to America's military power, not due to America's ability to travel to terrorist states like Clinton.
US and Israel collaborate to destroy a Syrian nuclear research facility.
Chalk another 1 up for "safer".
I know. Only Fox News keeps track of this stuff...
Maria,
Hope and pray a democrat like Hilary Clinton doesn't make it to the White House next year. Oslo didn't lead to peace, it only led to more violence and a war with Lebanon.
#190456 ben Fri Nov 30th 06:14:07 2007
4.) US, French, and German pressure on Iran at the UN against Iran's desire for weapons grade uranium.
for some reason, i don't feel much safer because of this one.
#190457 Jaron Fri Nov 30th 06:21:25 2007
Wael, Ben, Efraim or anyone who knows:
The areas that were Israeli settlements in Gaza are now being used for what purpose? Housing? Terror bases? Tomatoe farms?
#190458 Efraim Battleships and signed agreements Fri Nov 30th 07:01:51 2007
Jacob,
At the end of World War Two the USA received word from the Japanese that they were willing to surrender. The actual surrender document was signed in Tokyo Bay on an American battleship. As the American naval ships sailed into Tokyo Bay for the signing ceremony, no one really knew whether or not the Japanese would abide by their previous messages and not open fire on the American forces. It would have been suicide for the Japanese to do so but they had been fighting suicide actions all over the Pacific. The same concerns continued when the Americans sent landing parties ashore to begin the occupation of Japan after the surrender ceremony. Later on, when this issue was investigated by historians, it was discovered that there were elements in the Japanese officer corp that didn't want to honor any surrender agreement and fight on. They almost pulled off a coup to prevent the Hirohito's surrender speech being broadcast on Japanese radio.
As for Egypt, the question of Egypt's honoring a peace treaty revolved around whether or not Egypt's prime goal was to develop Egypt or to resume the Nasserist ideal of establishing Egyptian hegemony over the Arab Middle East. Had the realization of Nasserist ideology been Sadat's goal, no amount of land returned by Israel would have been enough. You can see the same with the Hizbollah in Lebanon. Do you really think that if Israel returned the Shaba farms to Lebanon the Hizbollah would join hands with Israel and sing "Give Peace a Chance"?
The interesting thing about Oslo was that it was a pretty good test of Arafat's true intentions. At the end of the process Barak and Carter offered Arafat everything he needed to build a Palestinian state and to resolve the refugee problem. Arafat turned it down. In my estimation it was because he simply could not give up the goal of Israel's destruction. In any kind of two-state peace settlement the Arabs will have to be offered enough to build a viable state. This will involve compromises on their part as well as on Israel's. If the Palestinians refuse to compromise, and refuse to accept their own state, I will assume that it is because the destruction of Israel remains more important than achieving a state of their own. You won't know this for sure until the offer is made AND implemented.
Efraim
#190459 ben Fri Nov 30th 07:33:03 2007
First in line who can afford the price will get it.
eugene
cc will
will is absolutely correct. first in line who can afford the AK47(s) will get it.
#190460 Efraim If it were only the housing Fri Nov 30th 08:12:01 2007
Wael,
There have been several attempts to arrange for new housing for Arab refugees. When the israelis built new housing in the Gaza strip the Arab leadership refused to allow the refugees to move out of their camps to the new neighborhood. In the end it was used to house non-refugee Gazans. When the UN rebuilt the portion of the Jenin refugee camp with modern housing units so that the refugees whose homes had been destroyed during the fighting could be re-housed the Arabs conducted violent demonstrations against UNRWA and its betrayal of the refugee cause. When Musa Alami built an experimental settlement in Jordan to determine the feasibility of resettling refugees the settlement was attacked and destroyed by "militants" in the refugee community and Alami was condemned for betraying the refugees.
Wael, the refugee problem as defined by Palestinian nationalism is not a humanitarian issue. If it was it could have been solved decades ago. For Palestinian nationalists the refugees are symbols maintained to show why Israel must be destroyed. Wael, if this were not the case, why do you think the problem has been unsolved for six decades, a whole UN organization not under the auspices of the UN High Commisioner of Refugees was set up solely to preserve the refugee problem; and you and I could sit down and work out a humanitarian solution in about 20 minutes?
Efraim
#190461 Efraim Those who grow veges in glass houses shouldn't throw stones Fri Nov 30th 08:18:03 2007
Jaron,
Most of the agricultural assets in the settlements that the Israelis abandoned are now piles of rubble. They were purchased by a Jewish philanthropist and turned over to the PA. The PA mismanaged the enterprise, the workers were not paid and in the end the hothouses were dismantled, often by the unpaid workers, and sold as scrap.
Efraim
#190462 Will A fib too far. Fri Nov 30th 12:14:37 2007
I had just managed to make it through Joe's list of safer chalk (loved the one about the Taliban, Joe) thinking I had at last landed on Pluto after years of travelling though Space. Then I came upon a rare dull gem of abstract origin. It looked like this:
At the end of the process Barak and Carter offered Arafat everything he needed to build a Palestinian state and to resolve the refugee problem.
It was then that I realised that I am Pluto and I have in fact arrived in Disneyland.
#190463 maría etc. Fri Nov 30th 16:24:33 2007
Ben, re riots in Paris
question to the europeans
what are folks saying about the goings on in paris?
Not too much in the Spanish media. They follow it but without too much interest. The riots seem not to have popular support at all and are expected to last far, far less than previous time. Also Sarkozy is not of the "angelic" sort that blames all misbehaviours on "society" (whatever that is) and plans to prosecute them all. That's the basis of his message.
and what ever happened to chirac? he was under investigation for some crime, but the investigation was put on hold while he was the president.
He has appeared in an out of court and I suppose that the French justice system keeps working and we'll eventually hear further.
Spain is busy in many other fields and has the attention elsewhere. We have elections beginning of March next year and all the focus is on pre-campaign stuff, also on relations with Venezuela, pretty screwed since the Spanish king told Chavez in public "why don't you shut up!!". There is attention on the Venezuelan constitutional referendum on Dec. 2nd which, if won by Chavez, would have him in power forever (Castro style).
ETA business keeps us busy too, whether to negotiate with them or not, or is the government negotiating while saying it is not, or not.
The political atmosphere and the public (and private) discourse here are acrid, aggressive and pretty ugly. I wonder what tone they'd use if they had real problems. Khaval.
maría
#190464 eugene Fri Nov 30th 18:09:14 2007
will, you were already deep in disneyland when you wrote 190449.
#190465 eugene Fri Nov 30th 18:16:25 2007
joe,
cc: maria
you forgot to mention sKerry and dAn rAthEr. what's up with that?
(btw, i'll try to watch more foxnews so i can feel safer; maria i suggest you do the same).
#190466 maría etc. Fri Nov 30th 18:35:20 2007
Joe, more about "safer"
cc Eugene
Yes, thanks to Bush, the US and the GOI worked pretty well together to make the world a little safer
1.) Libya opened up here WMD program to the Brits and the Yanks.
What is the GOI doing in this? what did it do in the Libyan case?
2.) Saddam Hussein is thrown out of office and into a spider hole, then to the gallows.
The fate of one single individual doesn't seem to be the matter in this case. Iraq IS better in the last couple of months than it was when I was there, but still, I would not call the state of Iraq in general "safer" thanks to your boss (the tembel ) Even if it were his idea to have the increase of around Baghdad and other areas that brought some doses of tranquility, I find quite an extravagant affirmation that Iraq is "safer" thanks to your boss, the UK and the GOI to add to the merry.
3.) Taliban, al-Queda and their training bases are thrown out of Afghanistan.
Talibans are more into Afghanistan now than they were during 2005. I would not call it better. Better than in 2000? yes. Better than 2005? definitely not.
4.) US, French, and German pressure on Iran at the UN against Iran's desire for weapons grade uranium.
Come on!
5.) Ability to sideline the axis of rejectionists (Iran, Hamas, Hezbollah, and Syria) due to America's military power, not due to America's ability to travel to terrorist states like Clinton.
I don't see it, frankly.
US and Israel collaborate to destroy a Syrian nuclear research facility.
No idea about that one. What was destroyed there?
I know. Only Fox News keeps track of this stuff...
I don't watch it; I don't find in in the places where I travel; I watch more conventional stuff, not FOX and not Al Manar
Hope and pray a democrat like Hilary Clinton doesn't make it to the White House next year.
The Lord did not make me much of a prayer... and if inclined to pray, I doubt it would come to my mind to pray about who is next president in your country. Be'emet!
Yalla, be well.
maría
#190467 Jaron Fri Nov 30th 21:12:26 2007
Efraim,
What about the actual residential areas where Jews once lived in Gaza. What (if anything) are they being used for now?
#190468 Will A very useful Gaza. Fri Nov 30th 22:46:45 2007
It's OK Efraim, I can answer that one for Jaron,
All the territory in the Gaza Strip is being used for the exact same purpose. That is, the imprisonment of the Palestinian residents there in contravention of Human rights Laws. Laws which I know you dont give a toss for, but also in contravention of undertakings given by Israel at the time they removed the illegal colonists. It's being used as an enclosed siege area to starve the men, women and kids who did nothing wrong but displeased Israel by voting for Hamas in a fair election. The whole thing is being used like a petri dish to observe a disgraceful experiment in Human behaviour unfold.
It's been used by Israel to see how far they can actually go in ignoring Human rights and still have the backing of the US and the silence of the EU and the UN.
Every inch of it is being used by Israel for this 24 hours a day and then when they need a weapons cash boost , they use the buildings and the people there for target practice or weapons experiments. Israel is getting a lot of use out of Gaza at the moment in fairness to them.
#190469 Jaron Sat Dec 1st 01:50:43 2007
Will,
I fail to see how you can be "imprisoned" in your own country. My question for Efraim (or anyone else) is more along the lines of whether the former Gaza settlement residential areas are being used for Palestinian housing or any other purpose at the moment.
#190470 Will Sat Dec 1st 02:58:33 2007
Jaron,
I told you what it's being used for . Efraim cant tell you anything different that has any truth.
You want to stick your head in the sand that's your biz.
If you get bored not sticking your head in the sand then get a map and draw a box 30mls by 5 mls around you house, then see whats outside that, that is necessary for you to live. Thats your country.
Now paint your face brown with a target in the middle of your head , OK now sing: 1.2.3....
Biladi Biladi
Biladi ya ardi ya arda al-judoud
Fida'i Fida'i
Fida'I ya sha'bi ya sha'b al-khuloud
Bi'azmi wa nari wa burkani thari
Wa ashwaqi dammi li ardi wa dari
Sa?adto al-jibala wa khodto an-nidala
Qaharto al-mohala abarto al-hudood
#190471 Efraim Sat Dec 1st 05:41:18 2007
Jaron,
When the Jews left their homes in Gaza they were bulldozed down by the IDF before the territory was given over to the PA. There was some talk of using the area for housing construction but nothing came of that, as far as I know.
The Palestinian terrorists don't normally use the ruins of the former settlements for cover when firing their Qassams at Israeli civilian targets. The terrorists prefer to use schools and homes that are inhabited by Palestinian civilians as cover. It is more effective because they know that the IDF will refrain from firing at them as long as they are near Arab civilian structures.
I hope that answers your question.
Efraim
#190472 Will So there ye have it. Sat Dec 1st 13:58:39 2007
OK Jaron?
Like I said, Efraim cant tell you anything different that has any truth.
#190473 Will Jaron Sat Dec 1st 14:57:04 2007
How on earth can you fail to see how you can be imprisoned in your own country. Most people who are imprisoned, are imprisoned in their own country.
I see, you really do have your head stuck in the sand.
#190474 Efraim Self awareness Sat Dec 1st 17:06:05 2007
Will,
You do realize that the answer you gave to Jaron did not address itself to the question he asked. Your answer dealt with what the Jews were allegedly doing in or to Gaza while his question was about what the Arabs in Gaza were doing. I presume that you were simply using one of your famous rope a dope rhetorical tricks. Othwerwise one might think that your model of the innocent passive Palestinians so strongly effects your perceptions that you cannot even contemplate that the Palestinians would take any action of their own what-so-ever.
Efraim
#190475 Will Who's the Dope? Sat Dec 1st 18:44:44 2007
I dont agree Efraim,
I think my answer dealt with Jarons question most directly and completely. My question for Efraim (or anyone else) is more along the lines of whether the former Gaza settlement residential areas are being used for Palestinian housing or any other purpose at the moment
All areas of Gaza are being used for the same purpose at this time. It is being used by Israel as an outdoor prison for containing the Palestinians in Gaza. These prisoners in turn are being used as hostages by Israel in attempts to further fragment Palestinian society.
As in any prison the inmates will carry on with their personal activities from day to day, such as reading rioting, or making love to their cellmates, but not by one iota does that change the nature of the prison or any single part of it from it's primary function. Gaza , in it's entirety, is being used by Israel as a prison.
Furthermore, I did not allege that Jews were doing anything in Gaza , I stated plainly that the Israelis are carrying out a siege in Gaza. Whether you like it or not Israel is a mutlicultural tapestry made up of may different cultural and religuious threads. The people carrying out this frightening experiment in the Gaza prison could be from any of these backgrounds. All I know is that they are Israeli soldiers and politicians.
.
#190477 Jacob Sun Dec 2nd 00:33:45 2007
You won't know this for sure until the offer is made AND implemented.
Efraim
The Oslo offer WAS made AND implemented. So what was the result? But you won’t take NO for the answer. That is wholly admirable.
Regarding the US Navy and Japan, after the two nuclear bombs, and Tokyo burned out by incendiary bombs, believe me, there was VERY little risk for the Navy. In any event, whatever the risk there was, it was against mighty battleships and not little schoolchildren in Sderot or Tel-Aviv for that matter.
All I can say is to repeat: when you have to say take risks for peace, you already know it can mean nothing but war and you are simply engaged in self-deception. But when Europe or the US State Dept. insists that Israel must take risks for peace it is much, much worse. Fighting for peace at the expense of lives of the other is simply baseness.
#190478 Jacob Question for Maria Sun Dec 2nd 00:44:31 2007
Maria,
There is the story about the woman in Saudi Arabia gang-raped and sentenced to 200 lashes and prison. And in the Sudan recently an English woman was nearly sentenced to 50 lashes too - for allowing to "misname" a teddy bear "Muhammed" thus offending the Prophet.
My question is about corporal punishment in general. Has it ever been denounced in a context of human rights? There recently has been a case also in Malaysia, and we know it is used in Singapore, and in other countries too. Isn’t it manifestly and self-evidently a violation of human rights? And if so, why is there complete science about it at the international level?
#190479 eugene Sun Dec 2nd 02:56:29 2007
jacob, here is a partial answer to your question:
http://www.bigmattress.com/weblog/images/Bush%20urges%20Saudis.jpg
#190480 maría etc. Sun Dec 2nd 03:07:54 2007
Jacob
There is the story about the woman in Saudi Arabia gang-raped and sentenced to 200 lashes and prison.
Not aware of the story, but could be.
And in the Sudan recently an English woman was nearly sentenced to 50 lashes too - for allowing to "misname" a teddy bear "Muhammed" thus offending the Prophet.
Wasn't she condemned to 15 days in jail or something like that? I haven't heard anything about lashing.
My question is about corporal punishment in general. Has it ever been denounced in a context of human rights?
Yes it has. It is contrary to humanitarian law and goes against the "Declaration on the Protection of All Persons from being subjected to Torture, Cruel, Inhuman and other Degrading Treatment or Punishment".
There recently has been a case also in Malaysia, and we know it is used in Singapore, and in other countries too. Isn’t it manifestly and self-evidently a violation of human rights?
Yes it is, in the same manner and belonging to the same category as death penalty, although corporal punishment has been kept in legislations a lot less than death penalty.
And if so, why is there complete science about it at the international level?
I don't understand your question Jacob, can you explain further? I don't get what "science" you yave in mind.
maría
#190481 Jacob Sun Dec 2nd 03:22:04 2007
silence, sorry.
#190482 maría etc. Sun Dec 2nd 03:38:17 2007
Jacob, re corporal punishment
And if so, why is there complete silence about it at the international level?
No, there is no silence at all about it. The organisations focused on torture, cruel and inhuman punishment, deal with the subject all the time; perhaps you are not aware of it.
maría
#190483 Jacob Sun Dec 2nd 04:30:45 2007
eugene
Yes, this is a partial answer; I am in total agreement on this score. But where is enlightened Europe, the European Union, this powerful union of super-wealthy states? Where is its weighty word?
#190484 Joe Links Sun Dec 2nd 05:05:17 2007
Maria -
I worked up a response to you, but it says "no links allowed".
How is that possible in light of Eugene's post 190479?
Thanks.
#190485 ben Sun Dec 2nd 07:52:41 2007
re jerusalem, east and west
the nature of the jerusalem jewish neighborhoods has been somewhat distorted here. most of the neighborhoods are in areas where there is contiguous territory between them and the pre 67 borders. Places like gilo, ramot, ramot eshkol, givat hamitar, east talpiot, french hill would not be a problem to keep in any treaty. the vast majority of israelis living across the green live here. further most of the arab neighborhood are also concentrated to the east and south of the old city.
the problem is in two other areas. northern jerusalem includes places like neve yaacov and psagot which smack in the middle of arab neighborhoods. the other area is the old city and the city of david. things here get a bit more complicated, not to mention of course places like the holy sites.