However I doubt Israel would be sending the troops any time soon.....
#191651 Jaron Tue Jan 29th 17:29:49 2008
In 191639 eugene wrote: "george, the yale four belong to a jewish family that decided they wanted to live in 19th century vilna but be in new haven at the same time. they are the kind of people who are intolerant but will use democratic principles to plead for tolerance and persecution."
How is this different than an all female American college that accepts federal aid putting restrictions (gender in this instance) on enrollment? I don't know about Israel, but the university I work at is pretty good at accommodating different belief systems.
#191653 eugene Tue Jan 29th 18:37:56 2008
I don't know about Israel, but the university I work at is pretty good at accommodating different belief systems.
so is yale:
" "We have a minyan every morning, a Monday night Talmud class, a Tuesday night individual study program, a wonderful kosher kitchen ‹ and all of these are fueled by a population of Orthodox Jews who, like me, live in the dorms and choose to be a part of campus life," said Josh Feigelson, a senior from Ann Arbor, Mich. and former President of Yale Hillel. "The Yale Five] want to avoid things which might stimulate 'impure thoughts' and which could distract them from their lifestyle."
Dan Reich, a Yale senior from Manhattan who attended the modern Orthodox Ramaz school, conceded that he understood the student's misgivings about entering dorm life. But he said that their unwillingness to enter the allegedly "immoral" realm of residential life while they eagerly take part in Yale's educational sphere struck him as contradictory. Mike Kestenbaum, a senior from New Jersey, echoed those sentiments.
"There are illustrations of sexual organs and discussion of sexual function in any reproductive biology class. Is the 'mere presence' of unclothed bodies and condoms any more immoral in a dorm than it is in a lecture hall?" Kestenbaum said. "These seem to be very hazy lines."
http://www.shmoozenet.com/jsps/stories/puritanism.shtml
#191654 Wael Tue Jan 29th 18:58:02 2008
Joshua,
Wael, what has the Gazans collective punishment of the residents of Sderot accomplished?
The Kassam rockets are ineffective and don't achieve a thing. Palestinians should seek more sophisticated missiles like the one Lebanese have. Only then would Israel think twice before inflicting more terror and misery on the civilian captive population it holds under siege. But Alas, Palestinians have a puppet Arab regime on their back.
And what did the Lebanese collective punishment of Israelis in the north accomplished?
If my memory serves me well, the recent attack was carried against soldiers not civilians. It is Israel who initiated attacks on civilians not the Lebanese. And back in the old days when Israel was occupying the Lebanese south attacks on Israeli civilians in the north were always in response to Israeli shelling of Lebanese villages. What did all of this accomplish ? I don't believe the south was liberated by having tea and coffee with the Israelis.
#191655 Will Tue Jan 29th 21:15:28 2008
Only then would Israel think twice before inflicting more terror and misery on the civilian captive population it holds under siege.
Perhaps think twice..but then go right ahead and do it, anyway. Israeli politicians kill Gazans for the same reason American politicians kiss babies.
#191656 eugene Tue Jan 29th 22:32:00 2008
Perhaps think twice..but then go right ahead and do it, anyway. Israeli politicians kill Gazans for the same reason American politicians kiss babies.
http://www.usefulwork.com/shark/independent_sharon.jpg
http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/images/baby.jpg
#191657 Will Spot the connection. Wed Jan 30th 00:16:03 2008
Typically Childish Eugene,
I'm making a serious point and you're playing games.
You in Ibiza and Joe at the Gaza Withdrawal ?
I dunno, Summer vacations 2005?
#191658 Jaron Wed Jan 30th 00:42:31 2008
Wael,
The Qasams are doing considerable damage to Sderot. They don't need to be a JDAM PGM. Anywhere in the vicinity is enough. I actually heard on NPR (a US radio station that isn't exactly pro-Zionist) even talking recently about the impact it has had on the population. You might be surprised what Israel has to offer if you guys just.....stop trying to kill it. There is a bizarre (IMO) ingrained natural gravitation (for cultural/historical reasons beyond the scope of this post)among my people to be nice even to those who harm us. Look what the PLO got at Oslo in exchange for....giving up nothing really. You have Zionists practically begging you to accomplish your overtly stated goal of establishing a Palestinian state and keep jacking it up.
#191659 Will Wed Jan 30th 00:50:58 2008
Anywhere in the vicinity is enough.
Not for Israel Jaron, they like to hit something. Cars, Families, Apartment Blocks.
Sderot, should walk a mile in Gaza's shoes. Olmert would be afraid to show his face within the vicinity after that.
#191660 Waydaylup abencefeamimb@goldwarez.org Wed Jan 30th 03:09:09 2008
#191661 TestName test@mail.com Wed Jan 30th 03:18:49 2008
Test myfunction comment
#191662 ben Wed Jan 30th 09:51:29 2008
"There are illustrations of sexual organs and discussion of sexual function in any reproductive biology class. Is the 'mere presence' of unclothed bodies and condoms any more immoral in a dorm than it is in a lecture hall?" Kestenbaum said. "These seem to be very hazy lines.
without getting into the justice of the yale 4's claim, to say that the atmosphere in a lecture hall and a dorm are the same is completely ridiculous.
#191663 Will Wed Jan 30th 11:58:56 2008
Does anyone else think the whole Rafah border thing has entered a very peculiar , make-believe phase. We have Olmert, Abbas, Rice, the Arab states all huffing and blowing about what they will and wont accept on the border.
How can they not be even a bit embarrassed at the spectacle they are creating? Is it that they think the world needs to be convinced that they have control of the situation or is it that they are trying to convince each other that they havent completely lost control of the situation.
All the while, the most important thing - Pretend Hamas doesn't exist.
If ever there was a case study for self delusion - this is it.
#191664 TestName test@mail.com Wed Jan 30th 12:48:04 2008
Test myfunction comment
#191665 ben Wed Jan 30th 13:29:31 2008
all huffing and blowing about what they will and wont accept on the border.
i think that your wording, huffing and blowing, is an accurate description. how much is actually behind those words i do not know. there are already voices in the cabinet saying that what happened is a blessing in disguise and is the beginning of a process whereby israel can really be free of gaza, completely. of course that means stopping control over the airport and seaport, but that will be good also.
#191666 Will Complete rubbish Wed Jan 30th 14:46:54 2008
This is ridiculous, between what you claim to agree with in what I said and in what I agree with in what you said, we are in complete agreement. Someones got to be talking nonsense.
BTW, You got your wording wrong in one of your sentences, we are not waiting for the day when Israel will be free of Gaza, LOL, what an absurd picture. We are of course waiting for Israel to finally let Gaza be free.
#191667 ben Wed Jan 30th 14:59:05 2008
we are not waiting for the day when Israel will be free of Gaza, LOL, what an absurd picture.
of course since you, white man, are not part of the we, any we regarding this part of the world.
#191668 Will Having too much fun to otice the rest of the world. Wed Jan 30th 15:43:22 2008
Spoken like a true Israeli patriot , my good man.
On the subject of something almost entirely unrelated. Did you realise that , by far, the most common statement still made to arresting officers in cases of domestic abuse is: It's my wife I'll do what I like to her.
Can you believe that such a mentality still pervades societies that call themselves civilised?
#191669 ben Wed Jan 30th 16:53:53 2008
Can you believe that such a mentality still pervades societies that call themselves civilised?
why the surprise?
#191670 ben Wed Jan 30th 17:11:15 2008
wael
If my memory serves me well, the recent attack was carried against soldiers not civilians. It is Israel who initiated attacks on civilians not the Lebanese.
from wikipedia:
# Hezbollah militants kidnap two Israeli soldiers patrolling along the northern Israel border. Three soldiers are killed in the incident, and five soldiers are killed in subsequent confrontations inside Lebanon. . . .
# Simultaneously, Hezbollah militants launch Katyusha rockets and mortar shells at Israeli towns along the border, wounding six Israeli civilians and five soldiers. (Haaretz), (Ynet), (iAfrica)
//en.wikipedia.org/wiki/July_2006#2006_July_12
#191671 eugene Wed Jan 30th 19:53:45 2008
ben, how's the snow?
#191672 ben Wed Jan 30th 20:39:35 2008
eugene
too wet to really enjoy. there was good snow this morning and then the temperature rose a little and it all turned slushy. now the temp has dropped again and more snow is falling.
however, snow is pretty, especially in this area, no matter if it is wet or dry.
and for all ski fans, the hermon is supposed to open thursday or friday.
#191673 eugene Wed Jan 30th 20:42:07 2008
ben, post some pics.
#191674 eugene Wed Jan 30th 21:05:04 2008
Can you believe that such a mentality still pervades societies that call themselves civilised?
http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/949340.html
#191675 ben Wed Jan 30th 21:08:24 2008
eugene
i'll try to get some decent one tomorrow. the ones i took today were eh at best.
#191676 Wael Wed Jan 30th 22:55:44 2008
Ben, Eugene,
of course, the real snow is up north.....Snow from 300 meters in Lebanon....
http://www.tayyar.org/galleries/thumbnails.php?album=1544]
#191677 eugene Thu Jan 31st 02:10:27 2008
corrected link:
http://www.tayyar.org/galleries/thumbnails.php?album=1544
after getting over the winograd report israel should look into occupying this nice area, the hermon is getting old...
#191679 Wael Thu Jan 31st 16:46:53 2008
Eugene,
Mont-Liban is worth the risk indeed However I doubt Israel would be sending the troops any time soon.....
#191680 ben Thu Jan 31st 18:00:57 2008
However I doubt Israel would be sending the troops any time soon.
i know the response but i'll say it anyway.
you mean that nasrallah has had enough with kidnapping?
#191681 aginlelyday noneodollatag@atlantmail.com Thu Jan 31st 18:19:49 2008
#191682 Will Thu Jan 31st 20:12:14 2008
No Ben,
He means that they got their asses put in a sling last time around and now they're too scared.
#191683 eugene Thu Jan 31st 20:37:47 2008
He means that they got their asses put in a sling last time around and now they're too scared.
that's true - but i wonder what the victorious lebanese keep complaining about:
http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/950105.html
#191684 ben Thu Jan 31st 20:38:43 2008
he means that they got their asses put in a sling last time around and now they're too scared.
well given that nassrallah himself stated that he wouldn't have started the whole thing if he had thought that the results would be what they were, i don't see him starting again either.
#191685 Will Peace 101 Thu Jan 31st 21:34:24 2008
So whats the lesson then?
If you live beside Israel and you want to get a bit of peace and quiet you have to kick it's ass?
I wonder if Hamas has heard that rumour?
#191686 Wael Thu Jan 31st 23:48:23 2008
Ben,
I know you know the answer but I'll say it anyway. The second Lebanon war was not about the two kidnapped soldiers, any brain with more than two cells can figure that out. The 2006 war was first and foremost about finishing Hizbollah, a decision made with American (of course) , Arab, and some Lebanese factions blessing. Many of the political turmoil taking place in Lebanon today is a result of the Israeli failure of finishing Hizbollah. Simply put, the Lebanese faction in power today had no plan whatsoever for the eventuality of Hizbollah winning this war.
#191687 Wael Fri Feb 1st 00:04:21 2008
Eugene,
that's true - but i wonder what the victorious lebanese keep complaining about:
Allow me to clarify.
1) Bombing hospitals, power plants, schools, etc.... is a war crime regardless of any action by Hizbollah (some of which are war crimes too). Use of lethal force should be justified, legal, and most of all proportional, otherwise its criminal. 30% of the Lebanese casualties were children under 9. Whether the Lebanese were victorious or not is irrelevant to the fact that the savage Israeli bombing is just plain war crime.
2) Israel failed to finish Hizbollah therefore Israel lost the war. The Lebanese complaint about Israeli war crimes is in turn irrelevant.
3) Siniora's political party and its allies have never acknowledged any victory simply because they're on the loosing side of the new post July 2006 equation, FYI.
#191689 eugene Fri Feb 1st 01:51:02 2008
Bombing hospitals, power plants, schools, etc.... is a war crime regardless of any action by Hizbollah (some of which are war crimes too). Use of lethal force should be justified, legal, and most of all proportional, otherwise its criminal. 30% of the Lebanese casualties were children under 9. Whether the Lebanese were victorious or not is irrelevant to the fact that the savage Israeli bombing is just plain war crime.
hmmmm...
you mean the israelis weren't the only ones who "got their asses put in a sling" as will says?
#191690 Fri Feb 1st 06:41:53 2008
For about 60 years Israel has tried to stay alive in this environment .
Required reading for Mike and Wael !
From SHAHNAMEH BY FERDOWSK (The Persian Shakespere who saved Farsi from being
Arabized)
From the classic book on Persian History written by Ferdowsi on the rape of Persia by the Arabs .
(" Damn this world, damn this time, damn this fate,(That uncivilized Arabs have
come to make me Muslim."((The real tragedy of Iran is the Arab disease. The
spread of idiocies and evilness from the washers in camel urine to the world!! (How much wisdom, beauty and peace has the world lost because of the
spread of the Arab Islamic disease!"
About 40 years has passed since Arafat threw the PLO into the civil war in Lebanon. This brought the Syrians openly into the struggle for control of the country directly and through its agents like Elie Hobeika , the man responsable for Sabra and Chatila masacres of the Palestinians .
This happened in the Christian Arab city of Damour in Lebanon in 1976. PLO thugs made history as temporary allies of Syria . According to Robert Fisk in " Pity the Nation " , civilians were lined up against the walls of their homes and sprayed with machine-gun fire . Their houses were then dynamited. The 149 bodies that lay in the streets for days afterwards showed grisly evidence of what the Palestinians had done . Many of the young women had been raped. Babies had been shot at close range in back of the head . Two hundred other civilians were never seen again . Among those who died was a family called Hobeika and a girl to whom one of the Hobeika boys -- a youth called Elie was said to have been engaged " . .
Massacres and Crimes Committed by the PLO and Syrians in Lebanon Between 1975 and 1990.
SEPTEMBER 10, 1975 The Christian village of Deir Ashash in the north of Lebanon was attacked. Elderly priests were slaughtered and all the people were forced to leave their homes. Syrian responsibility
*
SEPTEMBER 11, 1975 The Christian village of Beit Millat was attacked. Seven people were killed, and ten were kidnaped. Syrian responsibility
OCTOBER 9, 1975 The Christian village of Tal Abbas-Akkar, in the north of Lebanon was attacked. Fifteen people were killed. The church was burned to provoke a sectarian war between the Lebanese. Syrian responsibility
JANUARY 21, 1976 - The Christian town of Damour in the south of Beirut was attacked. Two hundred and sixty people were massacred as indicted above . The majority of the victims were women, children, and elderly. Palestinian responsibility .
JUNE 13, 1976 The town of Shikka in the north of Lebanon was attacked. Thirty people were massacred. Among them were women, children and elderly. Palestinian responsibility
U.S. Ambassador in Lebanon Francis Melloy was assassinated by Palestinian gunmen and the killer was apprehended by Lebanese authorities and jailed. The killer was released by the Lebanese court under pressure by the Palestinians and Syria. The U.S. protested unsuccessfully. Palestinian and Syrian responsibility.
MARCH 16, 1977 The Druze leader Kamal Jumblaat was assassinated along with his bodyguards. Syrian responsibility
OCTOBER 20, 1978 Tens of young people were killed and others kidnaped from the village Al-Kaa-, in Ras Beirut, and Jdeided el Fakiha. Syrian Secret Service responsibility
JUNE 30, 1978 - The Syrians shelled the Christian area of Beirut for 90 days. The shelling killed and injured hundreds of civilians and destroyed Beirut. Syrian responsibility
FEBRUARY 23, 1980 - The daughter of Bashir Gemayel (Maya) was killed in a car bomb. Syrian Secret Service responsibility.
FEBRUARY 24, 1980 - The journalist Salim Lawzi was assassinated near Beirut airport. Syrian responsibility.
JULY 22, 1980 - The Head of the Union of Journalists Riyad Taha was assassinated. Syrian responsibility
DECEMBER 24, 1980 - On Christmas Eve, the Syrians shelled the Christian town of Zahli in the Bekaa Valley. Tens were injured and killed. Syrian responsibility.
APRIL 2, 1981 - East Beirut was shelled at the time when students were leaving school. Hundreds were injured and killed. Syrian responsibility.
SEPTEMBER 3, 1981 - The French Ambassador Louis De Lamar was assassinated. Syrian responsibility.
*
DECEMBER 15, 1981 - The Iraqi Embassy in Beirut was destroyed by a truck full of explosives. Thirty people were killed. One hundred and twenty were injured. Syrian responsibility.
MAY 24, 1982 - The French Embassy in Beirut was bombed. Nine people were killed, twenty six injured. Syrian responsibility.
SEPTEMBER 14, 1982 - President Bashir Gemayel was assassinated. and 26 of the members of the Philangist political bureau were also murdered. The assassin (Habib Shartouni) was released by the Syrian forces October 13, 1990 during the invasion of the Presidential Palace. He is wanted by the Lebanese Court who are unable to seize him as he is under the protection of the Syrian Secret Service. Syrian responsibility.
APRIL 19, 1983 - The American Embassy was bombed by a truck full of explosives planted inside. Tens were killed and injured. Shortly following, the Marine compound at Beirut International Airport was blown up with a total of 243 dead. Iranian & Syrian responsibility.
SEPTEMBER 18, 1986 - The Military Attache of the French Embassy in Beirut Christian Gautiere was assassinated. Iranian and Syrian responsibility
MAY 9, 1989 - The Lebanese Sunni Mufti of the Republic Sheik Hassan Khalid was assassinated in Beirut by a car bomb with his bodyguards because of his opposition to the Syrian occupation. Syrian responsibility.
OCTOBER 13, 1990 - The Christian area of Beirut was invaded by the Syrians and hundreds of officers and soldiers of the Lebanese Army were killed by the Syrian Army and the corpses were thrown into mass graves in Dahr El Wahch.. Syrian responsibility.
August 12 ,1976, Tall al-Za'tar fell. It was a Palestinian refugee camp .As many as three thousand Palestinians had died in the 53 days of fighting, or in the subsequent atrocities committed by the victorious Syrians and their rightist Lebanese militias. The remainder were evicted as their homes were razed to the ground.
A small report about the friends and allies of Wael and Mike . I have dozens more for their edification .
#191691 ben Fri Feb 1st 06:54:33 2008
I know you know the answer but I'll say it anyway.
my answer is this: there is certainly some truth in what you wrote. it was about 1) going to war with the hizzis, 2) getting a quick and easy victory which would allow olmert to secure his political base and then do whatever he wanted, 3) dan halutz showing everyone what 21st century war could be (nice and easy, from the sky and plasma screen) 4) other things i'm sure.
and none of that would have happened if nassrallah had stayed in bed that day.
#191692 Fri Feb 1st 07:06:45 2008
pakitest
#191693 Fri Feb 1st 07:07:00 2008
pakitest
#191694 ben Fri Feb 1st 09:45:09 2008
//www.ladaat.net/siteimages/1201733147.jpg
Here is a picture of the winograd committee reading their report. anyone notice something off?
#191696 Steve Ganot steve.ganot@gmail.com Fri Feb 1st 12:53:20 2008
Ben, re 191694, yes, something is definitely amiss in that picture. If you look closely, you can still see Prof. Gavison's hands, folded alluringly in front of her gamine and now disappeared body. Heads should roll at ladaat.net for that prurient display of coquettish sensuality.
#191697 Wael Fri Feb 1st 16:37:00 2008
Eugene,
cc Will
I wrote : " Bombing hospitals, power plants, schools, etc.... is a war crime regardless of any action by Hizbollah(some of which are war crimes too)....." for which you replied "hmmmm... you mean the israelis weren't the only ones who "got their asses put in a sling" as will says?"
No Eugene that's not what I meant. Ben's reply to my post mentioning "troops" which subsequently invited Will's comment about "Israeli asses put in a sling" refers to soldiers not civilians. The only one here putting war crimes on par with military achievements is you.