#235 ben Sun Jan 7th 21:16:08 2007
But I would oppose paying for this with any sort of substantial concession
steve
so would i. i am not talking about turning over a whole bunch of terrorists to assad for the bones. the only point of such a gesture is to show some amount of sincerity regarding the desire to open negotiations. throwing a bone in this case is not merely a good pun, but a statement of reality.
how important is this to the people of israel? frankly i would be surprised if a majority of people know who eli cohen is.
#236 ben Sun Jan 7th 21:20:26 2007
But I would oppose paying for this with any sort of substantial concession
steve
so would i. i am not talking about turning over a whole bunch of terrorists to assad for the bones. the only point of such a gesture is to show some amount of sincerity regarding the desire to open negotiations. throwing a bone in this case is not merely a good pun, but a statement of reality.
how important is this to the people of israel? frankly i would be surprised if a majority of people know who eli cohen is.
#237 ben Sun Jan 7th 21:25:08 2007
There was also the case of those who ideologically were quite comfortable with being settlers, but who also in the case of a peace agreement would not object for the sake of that agreement. It was pretty high for what I remember, in some areas 80%
maria
i believe that the numbers were higher; closer to 90% would leave peacefully, whether they be economic settlers or ideological settlers who wouldn't fight the state over this issue.
last year, besides the crying and the screaming at the soldiers how many settlers actually raised their fists (besides the teenagers?)
#238 maría etc. Sun Jan 7th 21:39:55 2007
Ben, Alex Ch
(maría) There was also the case of those who ideologically were quite comfortable with being settlers, but who also in the case of a peace agreement would not object for the sake of that agreement. It was pretty high for what I remember, in some areas 80%
maria
i believe that the numbers were higher; closer to 90% would leave peacefully, whether they be economic settlers or ideological settlers who wouldn't fight the state over this issue.
Perhaps you are right; your memory might be better, or we remember two different surveys, but in any case, what I wanted to tell Alex is that living in settlements was overwhelmingly an economic decision and not a political statement of affinity or agreement with the settlements policy.
last year, besides the crying and the screaming at the soldiers how many settlers actually raised their fists (besides the teenagers?)
I don't remember anything serious. Let's hope it will the the same when the WB is vacated.
BTW, what is that recent story about building a new settlement in the WB at this stage of the party? why? (if you know).
maría
#239 ben Sun Jan 7th 21:45:14 2007
maria
regarding the new settlement in the northern jordan valley (a lovely area)
i have no idea why the moustache ok'ed it. work has stopped temporarily, but it could start up again any time.
#240 maría etc. Sun Jan 7th 21:48:38 2007
Ben, re the new settlement
regarding the new settlement in the northern jordan valley (a lovely area) i have no idea why the moustache ok'ed it. work has stopped temporarily, but it could start up again any time.
Moustache is Peretz? Labour Peretz? where does he have his brain???
maría
#241 Steve Ganot steve.ganot@gmail.com Sun Jan 7th 21:55:53 2007
Maria, re "get into the good graces of the US and Europe":
My thinking was like this: For a mixture of pragmatic and ideological reasons -- business relations, regional stability, human rights, less violence, less radicalism, etc. -- Europe and the US are anxious to bring Syria into the fold of "civilized" countries. (To be sure, the multiple motivations come in different proportions in say, the US and France.) If Syria were to make peace with Israel, and especially if Bashar were to do it Sadat-style with lots of drama and grand gestures (more on this below), this would go a huge way in terms of the rehabilitation of Syria's image.
Many world leaders would be happy to play peacemaker, get their pictures taken at fancy ceremonies, take credit for making business with Syria both respectable and attractive, allow Lebanon to re-assert its own sovereignty and independence, and pick up a Nobel Prize for their efforts, regardless of how Syria and Israel work out the "details" of peace between them. If Syria returns Cohen's bones and this elicits or requires some "positive" Israeli response, gesture, concession, whatever, they'll think it's just terrific, even if the Syrian and Israeli gestures are utterly disproportionate.
It is not that Europe and the US would be so interested in the repatriation of Cohen's bones, but rather that they are interested in breaking the ice, brokering a peace deal, and bringing Syria into the fold of moderate countries.
Steve: What should we be willing to pay for the return of Eli Cohen’s body? The return of a Syrian body.
Maria: Does Israel hold any unreturned Syrian bones?
I have no idea.
Steve: Remind me, what gesture did Sadat do, other than just to say "I recognize your existence, give me the Sinai back, and let’s make peace"? Sure, given the history of rejectionism, this was a major change, but I wouldn’t call it a gesture in the sense we’re using it (like a confidence building measure).
Maria: A gesture is a gesture, an action to express feelings or intentions, generally of generosity although it might have little visible practical effect or be unneeded. I found quite a gesture in general his visit to the Entity, and his visit was full of smaller other gestures. I am sure that the moment he went dughri into making peace with the neighbours, he could have achieved the same peace and the same return of Sinai empty of settlers without the gestures.
Point taken. But from my point of view, his "gesture" amounted to gracing us with his professorial presence and allowing himself to be cast in the role of distinguised, noble good guy -- the Beauty to Begin's Beast, the Ahura Mazda to Begin's Angra Mainyu. Begin and every Israeli leader before him would have been more than happy to make similar trips to all the Entities on and beyond our borders. But because of their willingness, it isn't news, and doesn't count as grand or generous. For better or for worse, chazarah b'teshuva ("getting religious") counts as greater than living a life of boring, consistent goodness.
#242 maría etc. Sun Jan 7th 22:32:54 2007
Steve Ganot
My thinking was like this: For a mixture of pragmatic and ideological reasons -- business relations, regional stability, human rights, less violence, less radicalism, etc. -- Europe and the US are anxious to bring Syria into the fold of "civilized" countries. (To be sure, the multiple motivations come in different proportions in say, the US and France.) If Syria were to make peace with Israel, and especially if Bashar were to do it Sadat-style with lots of drama and grand gestures (more on this below), this would go a huge way in terms of the rehabilitation of Syria's image.
I agree with you, but I personally doubt the value of the returning of the bones as gesture of any size.
Many world leaders would be happy to play peacemaker, get their pictures taken at fancy ceremonies, take credit for making business with Syria both respectable and attractive, allow Lebanon to re-assert its own sovereignty and independence, and pick up a Nobel Prize for their efforts, regardless of how Syria and Israel work out the "details" of peace between them.
I always wondered how many generations of Nobel prize winners the conflict in the Mideast will accumulate. We could now go for the third edition
If Syria returns Cohen's bones and this elicits or requires some "positive" Israeli response, gesture, concession, whatever, they'll think it's just terrific, even if the Syrian and Israeli gestures are utterly disproportionate.
Or even if the gestures are finally meaningless in the bigger scheme of peace making; pure cost-less cosmetics.
It is not that Europe and the US would be so interested in the repatriation of Cohen's bones, but rather that they are interested in breaking the ice, brokering a peace deal, and bringing Syria into the fold of moderate countries.
Frankly, I don't believe there is anybody around right now capable of brokering a peace deal of any sort. The "international community" will have to finish (or at least to put into the right path of solution) huge pending business before they gather some spare hard drive space to deal with the whole Mideast mob (no personal offense intended) and broker a peace agreement. The protagonists (Israel, the Palis, Syria, Lebanon, not to talk about Iraq or Afghanistan for example) have so many pending threads hanging, so much disfunction, so much pathos accumulated, that nothing short of a mega-crisis would make the thing move into any direction that's not further, slow, but still livable deterioration.
Maria: A gesture is a gesture, an action to express feelings or intentions, generally of generosity although it might have little visible practical effect or be unneeded. I found quite a gesture in general his visit to the Entity, and his visit was full of smaller other gestures. I am sure that the moment he went dughri into making peace with the neighbours, he could have achieved the same peace and the same return of Sinai empty of settlers without the gestures.
Point taken. But from my point of view, his "gesture" amounted to gracing us with his professorial presence and allowing himself to be cast in the role of distinguised, noble good guy -- the Beauty to Begin's Beast, the Ahura Mazda to Begin's Angra Mainyu.
In a milieu of grey-to-even-duller-grey failed politicians who achieve nothing but survival by routine, who don't act and just react, if someone manages to cast himself as a distinguished, noble and good guy, that's already a huge aesthetical and even ethical advance.
Begin and every Israeli leader before him would have been more than happy to make similar trips to all the Entities on and beyond our borders. But because of their willingness, it isn't news, and doesn't count as grand or generous. For better or for worse, chazarah b'teshuva ("getting religious") counts as greater than living a life of boring, consistent goodness.
It could be that it strikes as more "colourful"
maría
#243 Jacob Sun Jan 7th 23:50:32 2007
Peace with the Palestinians will become possible after the elimination of the Iranian regime and quiet in Iraq is achieved. Not the other way around, as Bushbaker is relentlessly pushing.
#244 Rudy The Kohen Sun Jan 7th 23:58:04 2007
Maria,is it September? ;-)
#245 maría etc. Mon Jan 8th 00:17:16 2007
Rudy
Maria,is it September? ;-)
If you are not into nudniking us, it could be September
maría
#246 Jacob Mon Jan 8th 00:21:48 2007
Hey, Rudy, when are resuming your little gescheft at Beit HaMikdash? Can I bring you a kozel?
#247 Joshua Mon Jan 8th 01:00:06 2007
Ben,
I was talking about Carter's words, and his policies, when he was president (as well as speeches I read from back when he was a candidate).
Here are some
"... I am opposed to an independent Palestinian state, because in my own judgement and in the judgement of many leaders in the Middle East, including Arab leaders, this would be a destabilizing factor in the Middle East and would certainly not serve the United States interests. (Jimmy Carter at the United Jewish Appeal National Young Leadership Conference, February 25, 1980)."
"That concept offers a first real hope for keeping our common pledge -- a pledge made by all three of us -- to resolve the Palestinian problem in all its aspects while fully protecting the security and the future of Israel ...
And we oppose the creation of an independent Palestinian state. The United States, as all of you know, has a warm and unique relationship of friendship with Israel that is morally right. It is compatible with our deepest religious convictions, and it is right in terms of America's own strategic interests. We are committed to Israel's security, prosperity, and future as a land that has so much to offer to the world. A strong Israel and a strong Egypt serve our own security interests.
We are committed to Israel's right to live in peace with all its neighbors, within secure and recognized borders, free from terrorism. We are committed to a Jerusalem that will forever remain undivided with free access to all faiths to the holy places. Nothing will deflect us from these fundamental principles and committments. (Source: First anniversary of the Egyptian-Israeli Peace Treaty / White House joint conference, March 23, 1980)."
So, when Jimmy Carter was President of the most powerful nation on Earth, and could have done something about it, he said he was opposed to an independent Palestinian state. Bill Clinton and Yitzhak Rabin reversed that policy. Bill Clinton staked his legacy on trusting Arafat to negotiate in good faith. Yitzhak Rabin gave his life for peace.
And Carter has the gall to blame Israel for not recognizing the aspirations of Palestinians?
#248 Jacob Mon Jan 8th 01:06:20 2007
Bill Clinton staked his legacy on trusting Arafat to negotiate in good faith.
Bill Clinton would have been wiser to have staked his legacy on Monika Lewinsky.
#249 Jacob Mon Jan 8th 01:11:29 2007
The Democrats were a peaceloving bunch... almost like Zaratustra (or who is the Spanish prime minister today?)... but only before they got in a position of power:
Iran with nuclear weapons is unacceptable, new House Majority Leader Steny Hoyer told The Jerusalem Post hours after entering the party leadership position.
The Maryland Democrat said the view is shared by his party, rejecting assertions that the Democrats would be weaker than the Republicans on Iran.
He also said that the use of force against Teheran remained an option.
#250 Ira Weiss Mon Jan 8th 05:06:55 2007
Joshua,
Carter's change from opposition to support for the creation of an independent Palestinian state in the West Bank was not as sinister as you make it sound.
In 1980 he opposed turning the West Bank into a second independent Palestinian majority state. That was before Jordan renounced its claim to the West Bank. At that time, 242 was operative, which called for a return to the status quo ante June 1967. So at that time, to be opposed to an independent Palestinian state on the West Bank was consistent with 242, consistent with opposing the existence of any Israeli civilian settlements within the West Bank, and consistent with its return to Jordan, which was itself an independent state with a Palestinian majority ... although not yet a democracy, so not yet an example of complete Palestinian sovereignty. The reincorporation of the West Bank would have simply returned the territory to its status quo ante 1967 as required by 242, and the residents would still have Jordanian citizenship ... that is citizenship in a Palestinian majority state.
However, in 1988, Jordan renounced its claims on the West Bank, and that changed the options. After 1988, the only choices remaining were (1) an independent Palestinian state, (2) incorporating the West Bank into Israel and giving all its residents Israeli citizenship, or (3) keeping the West Bank forever under Israeli sovereignty with its Jewish residents enjoying citizensip but its Palestinian residents denied citzenship.
Carter knew that Israel would never agree to choice 2, and choice 3 would mean permanent apartheid. Once giving the West Bank back was no longer an option, independence became the only acceptable feasible option left.
Prior to 1988 there was nothing sinister, anti-Palestinian or anti-Israeli about demanding that the West Bank be returned to Jordan and that Israel and Jordan sign a peace agreement. After 1988 there is nothing sinister, anti-Palestinian or anti-Israeli about demanding that the West Bank be made into an independent Palestinian state and that Israel and the new Palestinian state sign a peace agreement.
Ira
#251 Joe Mon Jan 8th 05:18:22 2007
"After 1988 there is nothing sinister, anti-Palestinian or anti-Israeli about demanding that the West Bank be made into an independent Palestinian state and that Israel and the new Palestinian state sign a peace agreement."
Ira -
The only thing I find sinister is Carter's latest book. And not only do I find it sinister, but a number of Jewish liberals find it sinister too.
A Op-ed from Harvard Professor Alan Dershowitz: From Jimmy Carter, a book length smear on Israel
http://www.law.harvard.edu/news/2006/12/04_dershowitz.php
#252 Mon Jan 8th 08:08:24 2007
Alec Said
"The Alexandrette district also known as Iskanderun sandjak ((Hatay )was given up by France (who had a mandate over Syria) to Turkey in exhange of turkish neutrality in the 2d world war. That measure was not validated by any syrian authority to my knowledge and the actual population of the sandjak is an arab or arab origin majority (even if Turkey has made an intensive turkisation of the territory)."
Contrary to your opinion , the Turkish press recorded that this development was in a signed treaty . It also included an agreement by the Nusayri (Alawite ) government to cease objecting to the diversion of water that Syria wanted . Of course Bashir wanted to keep this quiet as it exposes his hypocrisy on the Golan .
The basic policy of Syria still remains ,no matter how it twists and turns , is that all of the Turkish administrative district of pre 1917 Syria belongs to them . This includes Lebanon,Palestine , Jordan etc . Once you understand this you understand Syrian foreign policy .
An example of this is the Syrian massacres at Tel al Zataar , Sabra and Shatila and elsewhere in Lebanon , of pro-Arafat Palestinians .
Listen to Hafez Assad to Arafat:
"You do not represent Palestine as much as we do . Never forget this one point : There is no such thing as a Palestine people ,theer is no Palestine entity ,there is only Syria. You are an integral part of the Syrian people. Palestine is an integral part of the Syria. Therefore it is we ,the Syrian authoriies ,who are the true representatives of the Palestine people . "
“I Speak For Lebanon” Page 78, Kamal Jumblatt
#253 ben Mon Jan 8th 08:10:55 2007
maria
Moustache is Peretz? Labour Peretz? where does he have his brain???
the moustache is indeed amir peretz. regarding his brains, i would advise looking in the lost and found.
#254 ben Mon Jan 8th 08:19:33 2007
It is not that Europe and the US would be so interested in the repatriation of Cohen's bones, but rather that they are interested in breaking the ice
steve/maria
the phrase breaking the ice is a perfect description of the importance of returning the bones. there is no military, political, economic, strategic importance to it, just a very simple, even low level humanitarian gesture, even if made by the most cynical of people.
take credit for making business with Syria both respectable and attractive, allow Lebanon to re-assert its own sovereignty and independence,
for what it is worth: before the forum crashed i posted some stuff from some syrian "experts" about syria and peace. if the west wants to move syria away from iran then the price is going to be a lot more expensive than just the golan. bashar will demand that lebanon fall under syrian effective control again.
#255 HS Mon Jan 8th 08:42:09 2007
An open letter to President Carter on his new book , " Palestine:, Peace not Apartheid" ,with a history lesson .
"This is by an American who voted for you twice . I am legally blind and am over 92 years of age . " Part 1
For about 60 years Israel has been under siege . First came the Arab dictatorships . They had the assistants of the fleeing Nazi scum that floated out at the end of WWii .Then came the Godless Stalinist empire to give aid and comfort to the Arab dictators .We must not forget the anti-semites and the lunatic fringe that flocked to this banner . Now comes ex-President Carter"s more sophisticated assault on Israel by waving the bloody shirt of the Palestinians .
The true friends of the Palestinians are those who tell the brutal truth about the poor state to which they have been reduced by the Arab world and how the Palestinians have been used , confused and abused by the Arab dictators and anti-semites in pursuit of their own interests .
I am not an academic but some years ago I was invited by a college instructor to present a different point of view on the Palestine Israeli situation for balance . His classes on Middle East history were attended mostly by bright young Arabs whose tuition was being paid for by their governments . I was utterly amazed to find how little , like Carter , they knew of the past and at best they had and have garbled view and most of that is propaganda slogans . Not one knew that the Koran said that the Holy land belongs to the Jews . Almost no one knew that Mohamed ordered worshipers to face Mecca instead of Jerusalem ceding it to the Jews . Not one had read the greatest Muslim historian , Ibn Khaldun the father of scientific historical analysis , who in the 14th century called Arabs destructive barbarians and that Jerusalem was an exclusive Jewish place of worship and not Muslim . Not one knew that Ben Gurian had admitted about 50 000 displaced Palestinians back into the country on a family reunion basis until the Arab dictators put a stop to it . Not one knew that the Israelis had offered in 1949 to admit, at a U.N. Conference , 260 000 Palestinians back into Israel but that it was turned down by the Arab League .
Not one knew that the World Court had unanimously ruled that the disposal of mandated territory such as Palestine, by the United Nations in 1947 ,was legal contrary to Arab League claims . They did not know that the Arab League's liberation army that entered UN Palestine in 1948 was met by a communique from the Palestine Arab Higher Committee . It warned that all who cooperated with them " would be considered traitors ". How much of this did you know President Carter ?
Memories of the past are inevitably imprecise and fleeting and it is not uncommon for it to be resurrected in ways to serve present purposes, for good or for evil. Examine this human frailty as it affects a semi-literate people in the Arab world or those with an agenda . Impose this human frailty over their semi-literate people whose sources of information has been limited by self serving fanatics seeking and holding power or aggrandizement and you have the tragedy of the Palestinians . What is your excuse President Carter ?
In the Middle East there is and has been an almost inpenatrateable fog over the events that led to what the Arab world calls the Palestinian al-Nakba “ The Catastrophe” in 1948 . Qatar TV station, Al Jazeera, has summarized the situation saying, “For over 50 years the media in the Arab world has been feeding our people nothing but lies”. To add to this poisoned brew there is a western motley crew of would be ”Lawrences of Arabia” , naive do-gooders like you , and infantile leftists who are part of this cabal.
An example is ant-Zionist Noam Chomsky whose books are sold all over the world . Take his book "Fateful Triangle " where I found about ten distortions and out right lies on the first three pages of his chapter on Palestine-Israeli history . How can he write of the events around the 48 UN meeting ,which gave rebirth to Israel , without mentioning the October of 47 Arab League meeting which preceded it . Here they decided on policies which completely contradicts some of his anti-Israeli propaganda . How can Chomsky accuse Israel of being responsible for the violence of 1948 when the UN observers , on the scene , blamed the Arabs . He ignores the fact that Haj Amin Husseini ,leader of the Palestinians of 48 , has accused the Arab Dictators of invading Palestine to divide it up for themselves and not to help the Palestinians . He ignores the fact that the Arab League first starved and then liquidated the first Palestine Government in Exile .
Thomas Freedman plays a similar role when he accused israel of being responsible for the massacres of pro-Arafat Palestinians at Sabra and Shatila . It was Hamas , no friend of Israel , that correctly pointed the finger at Syria and their agents.
Briton has a cottage industry of hate israel experts led by the BBC and the likes of Robert Fisk . They , like you , have never been never bothered by the facts .
Now you have joined this group ,President Carter , with your new book .
Yes , there was a “disaster” for the Palestinians in 1948 . That which followed for the local Palestinians , was created by the Arab dictators who had invaded in their own interests in their effort divide up UN Palestine for themselves
#256 HS Mon Jan 8th 08:45:07 2007
Part 2
The evidence is overwhelming that the Palestinians have been used, abused ,and confused by the Arab dictatorships , their satraps and paid and unpaid praetorians and by the Arab leadership in general.
Today, with most of the Arab Palestinian population being under 30 years of age and even, if distorted , direct memory of the events that created their "catastrophe" . What is assumed and written has been trimmed and doctored to conform to dictated mythology .
"The Arab world today, sadly, remains a collection of disparate entities ?ruled for the most part by authoritarian regimes that rely on coercion, ?violence and terror to rule, and that demand from their citizens submission, obedience and conformity. And that includes those citizens who call themselves "journalists," to whom, by now, responsibility to truth and logic has become irrelevant.' wrote Fawas Turki , fired Saudi Journalist . Compare this with your book . .
A Gallop poll from nine Muslim countries showed that 61% of their inhabitants believed that Arabs were not involved in the 9/11 attack on the USA . This in the face of modern communication technology which even blankets their world .
If such nonsense is believed by the overwhelming majority of the Arabs today , how about the events of a year ago , or in the days of their grandfathers . They have little or no understanding of the past but live on the poisoned myths which fathered their present day misery . This cruel hoax continues with your help President Carter . The suffering of millions of Palestinians is perpetuated only for their own political purposes by Syria , Iran , and the rest of the Arab states and their Palestinian agents . The Palestinians are merely pawns in their war to destroy Israel and to cover up their own failures .
#257 maría etc. Mon Jan 8th 08:45:29 2007
Ben, Steve Ganot
if the west wants to move syria away from iran then the price is going to be a lot more expensive than just the golan. bashar will demand that lebanon fall under syrian effective control again.
Don't worry, it won't happen. Even if the whole bunch sort of wanted to make up, peace treaty, return of the Golan and all the rest, they are so many variables, the area is so volatile and they are all so clumsy that it would not happen... and the longneck will not return the bones either. We'll all stay as we are.
maría
#258 HS Mon Jan 8th 08:48:14 2007
Part 3
The “Arab Human Relations Report" was prepared by Arab scholors and intelectuals under the aegis of the United Nations. They found , after an 18 month study , that the Arab region has the lowest values , of all the world, in regard to civil liberties, political freedom , education. political rights and media independence . Little wonder that ignorance , rumor and propaganda substitute for facts . At best they are misinformed and abusive of the historical truths .
At the end of WWl the Allied Powers disbanded the Ottoman Empire . It handed its Syrian province over to the victors . Syria had been for abut four hundred years , except for one small period , an Ottoman administrative district and not a nation . One part of southern Syria was called Palestine . No Arab state conceived Palestine as a separate entity . This included all of the Arab states and even the Palestine Higher Committee when , at first , it was controlled by the Arab League . The Arab League had advised all international bodies that only they could speak for the Palestinians .
Early in 1947 , before the UN could meet to determine what to do with Palestine , Syria invaded to try to grab part of Palestine for itself . Again In 1949 the Syrian dictator offered to absorb the Palestinian refugees if northern Israel was included. No non-sence about a Palestinian state . Shortly there after there was an Arab type election and the Syrian dictator won the most bullets .
The attitude of the Arab states toward the existence of Palestine as an independent entity was clearly expressed by Hafez Assad , the late Syrian dictator , who said to Arafat ,"
" You do not represent Palestine as much as we do . Never forget this one point : There is no such thing as a Palestine people , there is no Palestine entity ,there is only Syria. You are an integral part of the Syrian people. Palestine is an integral part of the Syria. Therefore it is we ,the Syrian authoriies ,who are the true representatives of the Palestine people " .
From time to tme , Assad or his agents and proxies slaughtered thousands of pro Arafat Palestinians all over Lebanon at places like Sabra and Shatila and Tel- Zataar to enforce this point .
In 1834 a struggle had broken out between Ottoman Turkey and Egypt for control of Palestine , Both sides wooed the heads of the powerful clans . It was a cruel war and a bitter aftermath with the peasant conscript doing most of the dying and hundreds of villages were burned to the ground . In the course of these events Druse ,Christian and Jewish areas were despoiled .
One aspect of the killings had their echo in the 1930's period when Druse , Christian Arab and Jewish homes agan were looted while men were killed and women raped . When they ran out of these victims they turned on the middle class Arab families with the same treatment .
#259 HS Mon Jan 8th 08:51:19 2007
Part 4
During the short period of EgyptIon control , the landholding patterns began to be changed .Taxes were raised and more modern farming methods were required with expensive capital . The peasantry found themselves sinking deep into debt . Farms and Villages were abandoned as the large clans and foreign absentee owners absorbed the bankrupt farms . Peasants went to work for the large clans or fled to the cities .
Later when Mark Twain visited the Holy Land , shortly after the American Civil War , he wrote about an " abandoned , desolate countryside ' in Palestine .
Early in 1947 , the British advised the UN that they were returning the mandate to administer and rule over Palestine. The UN set up a commission to discuss ,with the interested parties , what to do with Palestine . The Palestine Arab Higher Committee , then under the control of the Arab League , could not even talk to the UN commission . The rest of the Arab League took the same position .
In 1922 the British had turned over to Hashemite King Abdulah 78% of historic Jewish Palestine . to form the Kingdom of Trans -Jordon . The UN in 1947 , by a 2/3 vote , turned over another 9% to the Arab League in which they indicated that the Arabs could establish another Palestinian state .
The Arabs at their 1947 October League meeting had decided as follows:
1-They agreed to violate their obligations to the UN if they dsagreed with the decisions of the UN.
2- All members were to prepare for military action in case they disagreed with UN’s actions in dividing up Palestine.
3-All members were to prepare to take in Palestinian refugees who were fleeing as a result of the pending war against the UN. This is the first mention of absorbing Arab refugees who were fleeing before one Jewish gun was fired in self defense . 4-There was no discussion about creating a Palestinian state.
#260 HS Mon Jan 8th 08:55:43 2007
Part 5
As Carter"s Christian linguistic theology would put it ,the “original sin” began in the 7th century with the invasion and conquest of Palestine by Arab storm troopers led by General Amir. At that time it was a pronvince of the Byzantine empire with a majority Jewish population .
In the treaty of “Capitulation”, they forced onerus terms on the Jews who had not fled. . This occurred even though the Koran , Sura V , said that the Holy Land belonged to the Jews. and Mohammed gave up all relationship to it when he ordered his followers to face Mecca instead of Jerusalem when praying.
All Jews were to pay a special tax for the right to live in their native land . They were required to supply free labor for the construction of roads . There were limitations on buildings for Jewish worship and their rights before a Moslim judge. All of the property of Jews who had fled the Arab invasion was confiscated. (Compare this with the fund set up in 1948 by Jews to pay for Arab property abandoned in areas designated for the Jews by the U.N. )
Apparently General Amir felt no sence of obilgation to the Jews for saving Mohamed's life . Mohamed had had to flee to the Jewish oasis of Yathrib , to avoid asasination by the pagan Arabs of Mecca.
From their own mouths :
* "The fact that there are these refugees is the direct consequence of the act of the Arab states in opposing partition and the Jewish state. The Arab states agree upon this policy unanimously and they must share in the solution of the problem."
– Emile Ghoury, secretary of the Palestinian Arab Higher Committee, in an interview with the Beirut Telegraph Sept. 6, 1948.
* "The Arab state which had encouraged the Palestine Arabs to leave their homes temporarily in order to be out of the way of the Arab invasion armies, have failed to keep their promise to help these refugees."
– The Jordanian daily newspaper Falastin, Feb. 19, 1949.
* "Who brought the Palestinians to Lebanon as refugees, suffering now from the malign attitude of newspapers and communal leaders, who have neither honor nor conscience? Who brought them over in dire straits and penniless, after they lost their honor? The Arab states, and Lebanon amongst them, did it."
– The Beirut Muslim weekly Kul-Shay, Aug. 19, 1951.
* "The 15th May, 1948, arrived ... On that day the mufti of Jerusalem appealed to the Arabs of Palestine to leave the country, because the Arab armies were about to enter and fight in their stead."
– The Cairo daily Akhbar el Yom, Oct. 12, 1963.
* "For the flight and fall of the other villages it is our leaders who are responsible because of their dissemination of rumors exaggerating Jewish crimes and describing them as atrocities in order to inflame the Arabs ... By spreading rumors of Jewish atrocities, killings of women and children etc., they instilled fear and terror in the hearts of the Arabs in Palestine, until they fled leaving their homes and properties to the enemy."
All of this does not cover the refusal of the Arab League to let the Palestinians accept the Israeli offer to take back refugees at Lasanne in 1949 ,the Levi Eshkol offer in 1967 and the offers made at the UN at other dates.
Eshkol's offer was accepted by Jordan but was vetoed by the Arab League's Fourth Summit at Khartoum, Sudan (Sept. 1, 1967) It convened after the Six-Day War, this conference agreed to take all measures to regain "occupied lands". To do so, the heads of states agreed to "unite their political efforts to eliminate the effects of Israeli "aggression" to ensure the withdrawal of Israeli forces. It was resolved that the Arab states should increase their military strength and that Saudi Arabia, Libya and Kuwait would finance the process. The summit issued the famous "three no's": "no peace with Israel, no recognition of Israel and no negotiations with Israel in effect this meant ,"let the Palestinians suffer".
Yes , there was a “disaster” for the Palestinians. . That which followed for the local Palestinians , was created by the Arab dictators who had invaded in their own interests in their effort divide up UN Palestine for themselves .
The most prominent Arab American , who championed the Palestinian cause for several generations , was the late Edward Sa’id of Columbia University . In one of his last columns in the Egyptian English weekly , Al Ahram , he accused the entire Arab leadership , including Hamas and Arafat , of the betrayal of the Palestinians and said that only amongst the Jews and Israelis can he find true friends of the Palestinian people.
Arafat ran the Palestine entity as a petty Mafia kingdom or as some prefer a Kleptocracy . Hamas , an alleged religious institution , runs the Palestinian entity in violation of the Koran . Both have victimized the Palestinian people .
Unfortunately you and the Palestinians don't know history .There is one basic question you have failed to answer . How do you negotiate a peace pact with a rattlesnake ? How do you negotiate a peace pact with Hamas or Iran who have only one demand .Israel must die ?
Your silence on Darfur speaks volume on your mindset !
Infantile” , pandering leftists and bigoted anti-Semitic rightists refuse to face or care about facts. You have become part of the problem . The road to hell is paved with your alleged good intentions in your book .
.
#262 ben Mon Jan 8th 11:10:06 2007
HS
re the open letter
with all due respect to this wonderful and most distingushed forum, an open letter to the former president would be best sent to him directly.
try this email: : carter.library@nara.gov
#263 Alex Mon Jan 8th 11:27:52 2007
Marinoor
Housing in the settlements was a lot cheaper (with government incentives, fiscal advantages, official encouragement, etc.) than normal housing in Israel.
Yes I understand. Just like anything stolen is sold for cheaper than its market value ;-).
The statistics of 80-90% are encouraging. So there are no more than 50000 Israeli fanatics that support the apartheid. Peace is still possible!
Cheers
.
#267 Alex a descendant of actual citizens of Ottoman Syria Mon Jan 8th 11:45:44 2007
please erase the 2 former postings where I erased a few sentences by mistake! (damn it)
HS
Contrary to your opinion , the Turkish press recorded that this development was in a signed treaty . It also included an agreement by the Nusayri (Alawite ) government to cease objecting to the diversion of water that Syria wanted . Of course Bashir wanted to keep this quiet as it exposes his hypocrisy on the Golan .
The basic policy of Syria still remains ,no matter how it twists and turns , is that all of the Turkish administrative district of pre 1917 Syria belongs to them . This includes Lebanon,Palestine , Jordan etc . Once you understand this you understand Syrian foreign policy .
It is funny, your style reminds me (as well as your mistakes on bashir in syria) of somebody else, but let's say it is a pure coincidence rather than some schizophrenia...
OK, the turkish press reported a treaty. Syria was at that time under french mandate. There was no validation by any syrian independant government and it is quite obvious that syria would never have given iskanderun for nothing to Turkey.
Now quite honestly, if you think you know Syria, Syrian history, have more syrian friends than me, studied syrian history more than me, have been to syria more often than me and know people from Iskanderun more than me whilst dozens of people in the church I attended in Paris were from iskanderun, then I must be suffering from idiocy, amnesia, hallucination or something really bad. So please donfirm, so I can go to the doctor's. But maybe before getting there, make sure you know the syrian president's first name!
Aaaah last thing dear HS
An example of this is the Syrian massacres at Tel al Zataar , Sabra and Shatila and elsewhere in Lebanon , of pro-Arafat Palestinians .
Tell al zaatar was done by christian phalangists, Sabra-Shatila too under israeli military control. the syrians have done their part of killings but not those ones.
After a thought I dont think i need a doctor ;-)
LOL
alex
#268 maría etc. Mon Jan 8th 11:48:01 2007
Alex, re fanatics
The statistics of 80-90% are encouraging. So there are no more than 50000 Israeli fanatics that support the apartheid. Peace is still possible!
Peace is not possible. Not now and not for quite a while. Those are figures of the end of the 90's and beginning of the 2000's, before and until the intifada-2 proved to be something more than a flare up.
Now to assess the possibilities for the future, for whenever peace could seem possible again, we'd have to figure out if on the Pali side there are only also 50000 fanatics only or many many more. Start counting
maría
#269 maría etc. Mon Jan 8th 12:51:25 2007
Alex, item plus
In the years we have talked about, before intifada-2 set in, the proportion of people on both sides in favour of the peace agreement was quite similar.
Let's wait for another, more peaceful era
maría