we also know 1) must be the case, but we don't know what exactly yet and the Syrians don't seem to want to talk about it
#180402 Jaron Sat Sep 1st 23:49:31 2007
Will,
If you are so concerned about the well being of the Palestinian people, where is your advocacy to their own government to stop torturing them?
#180435 Efraim Help Sun Sep 2nd 10:50:43 2007
Shaheen,
If you are out there somewhere, I think the site needs to be restructured so that access can be limited. We are being overwhelmed by the junk.
Efraim
#180449 george Sun Sep 2nd 16:56:43 2007
180090 ben
yesterday an IDF officer drove into jenin and was saved by the PA police.
I suppose that things like http://www.israelnationalnews.com/News/Flash.aspx/128265 may have led to Fatah wanting to take revenge against Hamas by extracting a victim from under their noses.
I wonder, though, if the whole "saving" episode could have been a planned set-up (the cast involved in the hypothetical setup is unclear) in the first place to make Fatah look good?
#180460 ben Sun Sep 2nd 19:24:50 2007
george
wonder away. but once you start down that path, you'll quickly get to barry chamish land.
#180461 ben Sun Sep 2nd 19:26:07 2007
The police team investigating former finance minister Abraham Hirchson has recommended indicting him for a string of serious criminal charges.
next stop - ehud?
#180465 george Sun Sep 2nd 20:13:04 2007
180460 ben
somehow, wondering about "pallywood" seems to be in a different league than Chamish
#180467 george Sun Sep 2nd 20:25:17 2007
To change topic to someting really important, my question is, just what are the specifics of "how the money was spent" wrongly, and what are the specifics of how it could have (should have) been spent?
http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/objects/pages/PrintArticleEn.jhtml?itemNo=899693
and apparently the money was not spent on salaries for the classroom teacher
http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/objects/pages/PrintArticleEn.jhtml?itemNo=899336
#180474 Joe Lebanon's non-Jewish and non-Israeli Terrorists Sun Sep 2nd 23:10:57 2007
Prime Minister Fuad Saniora called Sunday's final battle the "greatest national victory for Lebanon over the terrorists in Nahr el-Bared." He said in a televised speech to the country that this was "an hour of pride, victory and joy with regard to the sacrifices offered by our country and martyrs."
#180552 george Tue Sep 4th 01:32:50 2007
The story claims it was Israeli police (not the Wakf) that stopped her ...
http://www.israelnationalnews.com/SendMail.aspx?print=print&type=0.1&item=132675
And for those who do not know who she is (despite the difference in spelling):
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eilat_Mazar
#180553 Eugene Tue Sep 4th 01:32:56 2007
hey jaron, look someone finally agrees with you:
http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/899588.html
#180570 ben Tue Sep 4th 08:47:51 2007
george
what is the surprise? for better or worse, the police are the ones who control the israelis who go up to the temple mount. the waqf can complain about this or that person (like if they see someone praying) but the police are the ones who execute the orders.
#180583 george Tue Sep 4th 13:16:53 2007
180570 ben
my point is - did the Wakf actually complain, or, did the police do it on their own for other reasons? what could the problem have been - was she (heaven forbid) "praying" ? Plannnig to "blow up" the site? Taking pictures? seeing as I saw on TV the Wakf allowed actual film crew to shoot their previous excavations, it hardly seems that they were worried about a few pictures. (in fact, my sneaking suspicion is that they get a perverse thrill out of the anguish they cause the Jews when they trash our holy site and might even prefer to have it shown so as to spread the anguish)
#180596 Eugene Tue Sep 4th 16:54:15 2007
(in fact, my sneaking suspicion is that they get a perverse thrill out of the anguish they cause the Jews when they trash our holy site and might even prefer to have it shown so as to spread the anguish)
george, in case you didn't notice, the temple mount/haram al-sharif has for a long time been a place where jews and muslims like to cause each other anguish in various ways
#180597 george Tue Sep 4th 17:45:47 2007
180596 Eugene
I do not understand the reason for you remark. I was wondering what was the problem with allowing the person in question to visit the activities on the mount. I hypothesize that there the Wakf had no objections, and in fact may even have liked the idea.
Unless you are proposing that the Wakf did, indeed, object because as revenge for whatever anguish they felt, or, that her intention was to cause anguish to the Wakf, your remark has no relevance.
#180606 Eugene Tue Sep 4th 20:54:38 2007
george,
if you read your remark that i quote you'll understand the reason for my remark.
#180610 Eugene Tue Sep 4th 22:36:27 2007
nu, it looks like from now on only holy words will emenate from the Israel Broadcasting Authority:
http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/900485.html
Like these for instance:
http://www.jpost.com/servlet/Satellite?cid=1188197170444&pagename=JPost%2FJPArticle%2FShowFull
#180618 george Wed Sep 5th 00:44:16 2007
Seeing as this topic has been brought up in a link in at least two other posts, here is some other perspective
http://blogcentral.jpost.com/index.php?cat_id=4&blog_id=80&blog_post_id=1470
and the perspective of the one(s) being trashed by the media is barely mentioned, as in the very end of the following
http://web.israelinsider.com/Articles/Politics/11947.htm
#180619 Will Wed Sep 5th 00:46:01 2007
We are being overwhelmed by the junk.
Efraim,
I think that has always been the case here but at least the spam and porn are getting through effectively now.
#180641 ben Wed Sep 5th 08:46:06 2007
and the perspective of the one(s) being trashed by the media is barely mentioned, as in the very end of the following
not true. eli yisha was given every opportunity to explain r. ovadia's words.
#180645 ben Wed Sep 5th 10:47:26 2007
george
every thing that the blogger wrote about r. ovadia is true but he left out a lot of other stuff. he didn't mention his joining the rabin government, or his support for deri after the conviction, or his thunderdome fight with r. goren. he also left out his statements about various politicians that were a bit spicy.
There is no other religious figure that has journalists lining up to listen to religious classes to ‘expose’ anything they may deem untoward.
because no other religous figure of that stature has journalists in the room when they talk. r. elyashiv will talk privately, not on a satellite channel.
They characterize Rav Ovadiah Yosef as undemocratic even though he has proclaimed that voting in elections is a Mitzva.
oh please. when were there any type of elections in shas? shas politicians proclaim day and night that r. ovadia decides. and i really doubt that the good rabbi thinks that voting for meretz is a mitzva.
#180652 george Wed Sep 5th 13:39:47 2007
ben
Yishai is an MK, so I imagine he gets a lot of chance to speak. But if he stays focused on his job, I don't see how he can have time for this detour. In any case, here is a rare (English language) example of him being quoted at the very end. Strange how even the "editors" of the Haaretz seem to rely on second (or third) hand reports ("Israeli media accounts of the sermon also quoted") - shouldn't they have listened for themselves and made their own decision? But the point is, of all the (English) articles lambasting R. Yosef, very few mention the response.
http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/898054.html
#180654 ben Wed Sep 5th 13:53:27 2007
george
, I don't see how he can have time for this detour.
explaining away R. ovadia's words are part of his job description.
for my part, i really don't understand why anyone, except his followers, gives a fig what the rabbi has to say on theological matters.
#180655 george Wed Sep 5th 14:02:06 2007
The same story told with a little different twist:
http://www.israelnationalnews.com/SendMail.aspx?print=print&type=0.1&item=132824
#180656 george Wed Sep 5th 14:10:35 2007
Another example of how the same story is told with a different twist:
http://www.ktre.com/Global/story.asp?S=7025291&nav=2FH5
http://www.dallasnews.com/sharedcontent/dws/news/localnews/stories/090507dnmetholyland.9f870791.html
#180660 george Wed Sep 5th 14:39:17 2007
180654 ben
People wouldn't care, except the media has made a big deal about it. Israel is a place where publicly funded media do things like: present alleged "right wing" swearing-in ceremonies, even though it knew full well that it was phony; where alleged news program deliberately voices-over political rallies to make it look like the candidate is approving of calls to violence, and so forth. The media does not report the news, it tries to make the news to shape public opinion.
#180661 george Wed Sep 5th 14:40:29 2007
Is this a "trial balloon"?
http://www.israelnationalnews.com/SendMail.aspx?print=print&type=0.1&item=132779
#180665 ben Wed Sep 5th 15:12:14 2007
george
i guess that it is true that if the media did not report what r. ovadia says then no one would know about it and therefore no one would care. since he broadcasts his talks i can't see where a conspiracy is involved. in this case it was not just a left wing conspiracy since makor rishon and dati web sites like Kipa also reported it.
#180666 Will Wed Sep 5th 15:17:27 2007
If you are so concerned about the well being of the Palestinian people, where is your advocacy to their own government to stop torturing them.
Which Palestinian Government are you talking about, Jaron ?
See Im not sure if the Palestinians have a government anymore. Are you ?
#180680 Eugene Wed Sep 5th 18:30:11 2007
the problem with rabbi ovadia is not his leadership and scholarship it's the fact that he can't keep his mouth shut.
it would be fitting for him to ponder the middah of shtika and that hamarbeh dvarim meivi chet.
#180698 george Thu Sep 6th 00:06:18 2007
Ben and Eugene
It is not a matter of "conspiracy". It is a matter of bias, prejudice and agenda. The so-called "mainstream" media (so government-controlled beyond anything in any other western democracy) is hypocritical beyond the point of endurance. I doubt* that the real reason so many (in the media) are upset is because the statement seemingly denigrades the IDF. I suspect it is simply because they hate the religious because they hate religion (at least the Jewish religion) and this is just a convenient opportunity to do religion-bashing disguised as patriotism.
* see for example http://web.israelinsider.com/Views/4191.htm and http://www.jewishmediaresources.com/article/80/
#180702 Eugene Thu Sep 6th 01:53:50 2007
It is not a matter of "conspiracy". It is a matter of bias, prejudice and agenda. The so-called "mainstream" media (so government-controlled beyond anything in any other western democracy)
yeah, I'm sure Haaretz and Yediot Acharnot will be interested to know they are are "government-controlled".
what nonsense...
is hypocritical beyond the point of endurance. I doubt* that the real reason so many (in the media) are upset is because the statement seemingly denigrades the IDF. I suspect it is simply because they hate the religious because they hate religion (at least the Jewish religion) and this is just a convenient opportunity to do religion-bashing disguised as patriotism.
give me a break george.
the ones who complained the most about r. ovadia's stupid remarks were the parents of religious soldiers who died or were hurt in Lebanon, not the "mainstream" media.
the religious and the secular in israel are suspicious of each other and the way each use political power to encroach on the life style of the other.
the religious would do better to do some cheshbon nefesh on what makes them hateful (and they're better equipped than the secular for this) before letting themselves off the hook with the "oy they hate us" shtick.
my suggestion to you, george, is to skip the mainstream media if it so bothers you.
you have artuz 7/israelnationalnews , a "non-mainstream" media outlet (which doesn't report about the ineptitudes rabbi ovadia likes to mouth once in a while) to inform you in an unhypocritical religious-loving way about the world, politics, the weather, etc. why not stick with them?
#180703 Eugene Thu Sep 6th 01:59:33 2007
The so-called "mainstream" media (so government-controlled beyond anything in any other western democracy) is hypocritical beyond the point of endurance.
one more point george: all you know about the "mainstream media" in Israel is Haaretz and the Jerusalem Post, which are read by a minority. You don't know what Yediot Aharonot and Maariv write and you also don't watch Israeli TV or listen to Israel radio.
#180708 Jaron Thu Sep 6th 03:18:34 2007
Will,
There are right now Hamas and Fatah folks, in offices, running municipalities with Palestinian populations....and torturing some of those same Palestinians on this very day most likely. Not that this concerns you, since Israel isn't doing it.
#180720 ben Thu Sep 6th 07:56:36 2007
It is a matter of bias, prejudice and agenda.
and arutz 7 also has biases, prejudices and a very long agenda. that is the media, and that is the jewish people.
does haaretz have prejudices against rav ovadia? no doubt. however that doesn't mean that rabbi ovadia does not say things which others find insulting. do people misunderstand him? of course. his remark about the holocaust victims being the reincarnation of sinners was completely misunderstood. but there was nothing misuderstood when he said that people should have a party when shulamit aloni dies. and i don't think that there was anything misunderstood when he spoke about soldiers dieing. i did view the video and while for the most part he spoke about biblical times, he switched and spoke about lebanon as well.
anyone who wants to hear the actual talk can do so at:
http://lifeinisrael.blogspot.com/2007/08/rav-ovadia-yosefs-speech-video.html
#180724 ben goodbye norman Thu Sep 6th 08:52:21 2007
A Chicago university professor who has drawn criticism for accusing some Jews of abusing the legacy of the Holocaust agreed Wednesday to resign immediately "for everybody's sake."
DePaul University officials and political science professor Norman Finkelstein issued a joint statement announcing the resignation, which came as about a hundred protesters gathered outside the dean's office to support him.
#180732 Will Jaron Thu Sep 6th 11:54:01 2007
Not that this concerns you, since Israel isn't doing it.
Not doing what ? Not torturing Palestinians in their prisons? Not taking advantage of High court approval to carry out torture on any of it 11000 detainees and prisoners? Not using sexual abuse on Palestinian detainees? Not paralysing people with torture teams with doctors on standby for revival purposes?
You seem deluded.
http://www.imemc.org/article/48685
Your allegations about Palestinian "folks" is too vague to merit discussion. Which folks? what government? I dont think there is a functioning Palestinian government and you dont seem to have a clue what I'm talking about.
Best advice I could give you is to say nuthin until ye hear more.
#180735 Jaron Thu Sep 6th 12:13:08 2007
Will,
1. Israel is not in charge of Gaza or the population centers of the WB. The government in those places is composed of Arabic speaking Palestinians who belong to either Fatah or Hamas. Do you disagree with this?
2. Those same Palestinians who are in charge of those populations (that you don't seem to consider a government of sorts) employs torture against said Palestinian population. Do you disagree with this?
#180743 Thu Sep 6th 14:40:34 2007
test
#180759 Joe Glory Days Thu Sep 6th 18:41:39 2007
Israel crossed into Syria's airspace??!! Ohhhh myyy!
When will the Israelis ever learn that Syria should be able to support and arm terrorist groups on Israel's border without paying a price?
That's Israeli Chutzpah folks!
#180789 Moe Fri Sep 7th 07:03:32 2007
When will the Israelis ever learn that Syria should be able to support and arm terrorist groups on Israel's border without paying a price?
Joe, do you support that Israel return the Golan in exchange for peace with Syria ? why don't you support this formula on this page (don't let your friends and relatives know, I promise I wont tell) and then ask the question above Joe ? Is there a price for indefinitely keeping the Syrian Golan ?
#180816 ben Fri Sep 7th 15:55:01 2007
will
there may or may not be a functioning palestinian government, neither in the west bank nor in gaza.
however, it is also true that both hamas and fatah have been accused of torturing other palestinians.
#180820 Eugene Fri Sep 7th 16:47:48 2007
ben,
however, it is also true that both hamas and fatah have been accused of torturing other palestinians.
that too is because of the brutal Zionist occupation
in fact, there's no end to the atrocities committed by the Zionists:
http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/902024.html
#180821 Will Palestinian birth pains. Fri Sep 7th 17:42:23 2007
Think of it this way if it helps you to get into the right mindset.
Just after 911 bunches of anti-Bush youths gather in the streets on some spurious pretext and start to chant anti-Bush slogans and throw stones and generally start to try to cause civil unrest. Do you think that the American cops are going to be told to go out there and take it easy on the poor saps coz there havin a rough week. No. the orders will be to beat the shit out of them and use deadly force if you think things are getting to hot.
So Hamas are taking a zero tolerance attitiude to any groups that might be trying to bring down their administration. After all they have just survived a coup attempt that was backed and funded by its deadly enemies Israel and the US. They are surrounded by enemies they are under siege and they are anticipating a November invasion from one of the most dangerous armies in the world.
Think about it before you put your little digits in gear.
I have two questions for you pair.
Bemn, How did you det to a triple negative by the end of your fist sentence ?
Eugene, whats a Zionist?
#180822 Will Correction Fri Sep 7th 17:44:06 2007
Ben, How did you get to a triple negative by the end of your first sentence?
#180824 ben Fri Sep 7th 17:55:16 2007
will
if your post 9/11 scenaria had happened, then the bush admin would have been guilty of human rights violations, just like hamas is. context is fine and dandy but after all that context, hamas is still torturing people.
#180829 Will Ben Fri Sep 7th 18:34:27 2007
In that scenario Im not talking about torture , Im talking about the heavy handed approach to the outdoor "prayer" meetings.
As far as the torture end of it goes I am aware of the allegations of torture against both Hamas and Fateh. They have both accused each other of using it. Third parties have accused each of using it against the other. I know torture has been used by Palestinians against Palestinians. I know torture has also been used by Israel against Palestinians. Its been legalised by the Israeli high court. Torture is part of the official justice system in Israel. But its not really that surprising as it is part of the Official American government Policy to torture people. the have Gantanemo for their own official torture victims and then when they have a special case they send him off to Egypt and Syria to be tortured because the yanks dont have the stomach for driling people and stuff. They like to put their holes in people from as far away as possible.
Heavens to Betsy what would the papers say if the American Christian establishment was found carrying on like barbarians or Arabs or Israelis ?
But Hamas has made a huge improvement in security in Gaza and I dont think they have institutionalised torture like Israel and America have.
And The Bush admin is guilty of Human rights violations, thousand and thousands of Human rights violations. And Illegal wars and mass exterminations and treason. And lots and lots of torturin.
Yup.
#180877 Jaron Sat Sep 8th 17:44:15 2007
In 180821 Will wrote: "Just after 911 bunches of anti-Bush youths gather in the streets on some spurious pretext and start to chant anti-Bush slogans and throw stones and generally start to try to cause civil unrest. Do you think that the American cops are going to be told to go out there and take it easy on the poor saps coz there havin a rough week. No. the orders will be to beat the shit out of them and use deadly force if you think things are getting to hot."
Will, every week we have folks on the campus where I work (both students and visitors) who have a regular protest about their love of BabyBush. Do you know what happens to them? Nothing at all. Sometimes some yobo honks a car horn at them in either support or opposition.
Will wrote: "So Hamas are taking a zero tolerance attitiude to any groups that might be trying to bring down their administration. After all they have just survived a coup attempt that was backed and funded by its deadly enemies Israel and the US. They are surrounded by enemies they are under siege and they are anticipating a November invasion from one of the most dangerous armies in the world."
Israel has been in that situation for 50+ years and it doesn't justify them using torture.
The main point here is that Hamas and Fatah do use torture against other Palestinians and it doesn't seem to bother you one bit. Yet if the same Palestinian is tortured by Israel all of a sudden it is a big problem? Give me a break. That is like saying that Castlereigh was terrible but the IRA counterintelligence folks taking power drills to Seamus for whatever reason is acceptable. Either you allow torture by all and shut up, or you criticize it equally when it is done by anyone, even your favorite "victim of the month".
#180886 Will Singling out Jaron. Sat Sep 8th 23:58:16 2007
http://savewhales.meetup.com/boards/
Here is a link to the Save the Whales site I think you should go on there and give them a load of guff about not caring about the Giant Panda, I mean after all, the Panda is far more endangered than the whales. Why dont they care about the Irish red deer or the American Grizzly or the African Elephants. I wonder are they secretly haters of Seals. Singling out the rest of the animal world for extinction is a disgrace. No?
Should a Palestinian not be allowed to highligfht Israel's use of torture either ? Should he be told to shut up for not allowing everybody to use torture or for not criticising everybody equally? Come to think of it, Should you not be ashamed for supporting a torturing administration in Israel and doubly so for your own country's tortures that you dont highlight here? You appear to be a torture enabler.
The main point here is not that Hamas and Fatah do use torture against other Palestinians and it doesn't seem to bother me one bit. In fact the main point here has got absolutely nothing to do with me. That's just something you have convinced yourself of. The main point here is that in it's war against Palestinian Society Israel has officially sanctioned torture as one of it's legal methods of securing its end goal and nobody bats an eyelid. The self-proclaimed only democracy in the ME and the other greatest democracy in the world are torturers of people and nobody cares because they have singled out the arabs or the Muslims for their hatred. To me thats a very important point.
As for those kids protesting outside your college. If they did that the day or the week after 911 and were violent and throwing stones and had in fact a core element of a violent enemy of the Bush admin. in its midst, like Al-queda elements for example, whipping up hatred and frenzy at a time of emergency, then they would have experienced more than the honk of horns. They most likely would be batoned, shot, tear gassed and arrested. And most American people would have cheered. Are you going to say that only Hamas does not have the right to protect its position in administration? Only Hamas are singled out.
Israel has been in that situation for 50+ years and it doesn't justify them using torture.
I think I need a Bucket.
#180887 Jaron Sun Sep 9th 00:13:49 2007
Will,
This is not rocket surgery. I am not even one of the HR advocates on this forum and I can see it. The question here is whether you oppose Palestinians being tortured by anyone or is Halal for Hamas or Fatah to do it. You seem to be fine with Arabic speaking torturers, so I would say that you main goal here is more to oppose Israel than help the Palestinians.
#180900 Eugene consistency is a good thing... Sun Sep 9th 05:58:28 2007
Jaron, you don't get it: Will has extended his admiration of decapitators in Iraq to include Hamas thugs in Gaza.
#180907 ben Sun Sep 9th 10:16:38 2007
If they did that the day or the week after 911 and were violent and throwing stones and had in fact a core element of a violent enemy of the Bush admin.
how in the world does someone compare people praying in public to rioters?
#180923 Eugene Sun Sep 9th 16:50:22 2007
how in the world does someone compare people praying in public to rioters?
by being a hamas supporter
#180929 Eugene Sun Sep 9th 19:28:46 2007
LOL!
http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/902412.html
#180938 ben Sun Sep 9th 20:51:56 2007
anyone want to speculate what idf planes were doing over syria?
#180943 Will Duhh! Sun Sep 9th 22:25:58 2007
anyone want to speculate what idf planes were doing over syria?
Sure thing Ben, just as soon as I'm finished speculating why bears shit in the forest.
#180945 Will Sun Sep 9th 22:40:14 2007
http://www.guardian.co.uk/israel/Story/0,,2164902,00.html
Im not comparing prayers to riots, I'm comparing fomenting civil unrest in times of civil emergency to just that.
"Today we were successful in inhibiting the demonstrators. We say to the Fatah leaders that we can allow any political activity but we cannot allow chaos. There is a difference between the two."
Im comapring the presence of Senior Fateh members drumming up support for a violence against Hamas in the aftermath of an attempted coup to hardcore Al - Queda members drumming up support for riots immediately after 911.
#180946 Will Sun Sep 9th 22:58:25 2007
Hey Eugene,
The IDF executed at least eight or nine children over the last couple of weeks to add to the running total. What is you admire about them so much? Their consistency?
#180947 Eugene Sun Sep 9th 23:07:57 2007
anyone want to speculate what idf planes were doing over syria?
trying to get syria's panties in a bunch.
#180948 Eugene Sun Sep 9th 23:12:08 2007
will, i never expressed my admiration for child killers.
you, however, told us of your awed admiration for kidnappers and decapitators in iraq
so that's what i was telling jaron: admirers of decapitators are naturally also admirers of torturers (as long as they're arab, of course).
btw, children playing with matches or hanging around qassam launchers are likely to get hurt.
#180949 Will Sun Sep 9th 23:17:14 2007
Correct me if Im wrong, you were in the IDF. They say Emulation is the highest form of Admiration.
I am not in Hamas or Hezbollah or Al-Queda.
Where Im from Children dont get shot for playing with matches or footbals or just each other. Thats because we dont put child killers on the streets with rifles and give them impunity from prosecution. It wasnt the Qassam that killed the kids it was the bollox in the IDF uniform.
#180950 Eugene Mon Sep 10th 00:00:56 2007
don't change the subject will
your admiration for arab killers is well documented on this forum.
#180952 Will Mon Sep 10th 00:30:41 2007
Eugene, Id bet you cant even remember what i posted to give you your little "arab decapitators" hobby horse. Ill give you a hint it didnt have the word admire or admiration in it at all.
You are making that up by yourself same as most of what you put up here.
And I aint changing the subject, the IDF are a law onto themselves whether its getting away with torture or murder. But you dont care because youve singled them out for complete immunity from criticism no matter what they do. But so has the Israeli government and judicial system, along with half of America amd Europe. So you dont have to feel particularly low, its acceptable in pro-establishment circles.
What a sheep you are.
#180954 Eugene Mon Sep 10th 00:52:04 2007
oh, i remember it right will.
i also remember the anti-semitic stuff with which you introduced yourself to the forum - even walter couldn't take it.
and the "dirty hand reaching into palestine" stuff which pretty much summarizes your position on the matter.
#180956 Will Mon Sep 10th 01:18:40 2007
Who's Walter, and why would I give a toss about what he can and cant take.
Why are you defending torture and child murder?
#180957 Eugene Mon Sep 10th 01:22:02 2007
ha ha ha
nice try will
#180971 Efraim A democratic state Mon Sep 10th 06:11:01 2007
Double standards are not usually viewed as acceptable though most people have trouble applying a unified set of moral standards to the Arab-Israeli conflict. However, there is a particular problem when those poeple who advocate a one-state solution to the Israel-Palestine conflict apply double standards to the situation. One has to wonder what sort of democratic state they envision with Muslims, Christians and Jews living together with equal rights when those advocating such a solution find it so difficult to recognize or condemn human rights violations by only one side in this conflict.
#180981 ben Mon Sep 10th 09:40:59 2007
Im comapring the presence of Senior Fateh members drumming up support for a violence against Hamas in the aftermath of an attempted coup to hardcore Al - Queda members drumming up support for riots immediately after 911.
and at the end of the day you are justifying hamas thugs beating people who are praying. this is the same type of propaganda that trotsky and stalin used to justify slaughtering innocents - the need to secure the regime.
#180982 ben Mon Sep 10th 09:42:04 2007
a journalist told me that yesterday the islamic jihad killed ISM's arab liason. i doubt that this will impede the useful idiots from continuing their work.
#180984 ben Mon Sep 10th 10:07:08 2007
debka reports that the syrians' super new russian anti aircraft missiles failed to take down the israeli jets, something seen as a huge slap to the russkies.
the news here is only reporting that so far everyone is amazed that the reason for the mission has not been revealed, not by the syrians and even more amazingly, not by big mouth israeli politicians.
#180989 Will Mon Sep 10th 11:17:14 2007
Nice one Efraim,
What else does it say on he back of your box of cornflakes this morning?
#180990 Will Mon Sep 10th 11:29:52 2007
Ben,
No Im not Justifying people beating up people who are praying.
News reports have made it clear to me that these so called prayer meetings are an excuse to rally people to take part in anti-Hamas demonstrations.
Israeli soldiers can shoot kids playing chasing and the excuse is that they represented a threat to national security, none of you bat an eyelid. But a mob of Anti-Hamas demonstrators can expect to gather in a time of extreme Palestinian upheaval under the influence of High level Fateh officials and expect to be served tea and scones.
Double standards? You guys invented the prototype.
#180991 ben Mon Sep 10th 11:38:47 2007
i eagerly await the day that praying in public is no longer seen as a threat to the democratic, human rights observing state of gaza.
#181000 ben Mon Sep 10th 12:13:00 2007
Israeli soldiers can shoot kids playing chasing and the excuse is that they represented a threat to national security, none of you bat an eyelid.
and hamas soldiers shoot kassams at israeli kindergardens and no one bats an eye.
#181005 Eugene Mon Sep 10th 16:08:48 2007
debka reports that the syrians' super new russian anti aircraft missiles failed to take down the israeli jets, something seen as a huge slap to the russkies.
not sure what exactly happened (debka tends to make things up) but given how the syrians are shaking and frothing at the mouth it wasn't just an airspace violation.
#181015 ben Mon Sep 10th 19:46:56 2007
well whatever happened, assad sure looks like a wimp compared to nasrallah. the sheik got bombed and bombed northern israel for a month. and long neck so far hasn't done a thing.
#181019 Will illegal dumping for real men. Mon Sep 10th 19:54:54 2007
Well maybe Assad should leave an old Fiat outside tel Aviv or something like that.
#181020 ben made up??? Mon Sep 10th 19:56:33 2007
from debka
Those sources say Syria has mobilized armored, missile, air crews and air defense units - partly in readiness for repeats of alleged Israeli incursions of Syrian airspace and partly in response to the partial call-up in Israel which began beginning last Thursday, Sept 6.
what partial call up???????
#181024 Jaron Mon Sep 10th 21:16:12 2007
Will wrote: "Thats because we dont put child killers on the streets with rifles and give them impunity from prosecution."
Have you ever seen what summer camp for Palestinian children looks like. The AK-47's are bigger than the kids carrying them while they sing nice campfire songs about how they want to be shaheeds. Israel doesn't run these camps. Arabic speaking Palestinians are the teachers and coordinators molding these young minds.
Secondly, the suicide bomber specifically goes for civilian commuter buses, markets and restaurants. I haven't heard you get nearly as exorcised about that. Unguided Qasam rockets aimed, oh anywhere where it can hit a living Jew, don't bother you much either. But such empathy for Palestinians who get attacked by Israel. Of course, if that VERY SAME Palestinian is beaten while praying by a Palestinian, the silence is deafening.
Will, you are showing not a double, but a triple standard here.
#181028 Eugene Mon Sep 10th 22:27:05 2007
ben,
Syrian Foreign Minister Walid Muallem said Monday that Israel Air Force warplanes dropped live ammunition during an alleged violation of Syrian airspace in the early hours of Thursday
we're slowly getting closer to the truth:
"Syrian Foreign Minister Walid Muallem said Monday that Israel Air Force warplanes dropped live ammunition during an alleged violation of Syrian airspace in the early hours of Thursday"
http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/902529.html
Now if the Syrians could also bring themselves to reveal what that live ammo was dropped on ;---)
#181030 ben Mon Sep 10th 23:11:11 2007
http://joshualandis.com/blog/?p=370
well for all you landis fans, he speculates that the idf was chasing korean missiles.
#181043 Jaron Tue Sep 11th 01:51:28 2007
Maria, Walter, Shaheen,
Not disparaging porn, cialis, nigerian internet fraud schemes or viagra, but can you maybe give editorial controls to someone else with a mandate limited to keeping said materials off this page?
Thanks,
Jaron
#181053 Joe Rudderless Tue Sep 11th 05:23:47 2007
and hamas soldiers shoot kassams at israeli kindergardens and no one bats an eye.
Ben -
And neither does Olmert and the current government.
And neither do the Israeli "Yafeh Nefesh" and Ha'aretz subscribers.
And the important thing to make of all of this is the BB is a disaster.
#181054 Adesva adesvae@mymail-in.net Tue Sep 11th 05:33:22 2007
Hi all!
How are you?
#181055 Eugene Tue Sep 11th 05:42:24 2007
you see, ben, things are slowly becoming clearer:
"Syria: IAF warplanes fired missiles at targets on the ground"
http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/902928.html
#181056 Ira Weiss iraweiss@comcast.net Tue Sep 11th 05:45:09 2007
I was at a meeting Sunday evening to hear two University students from a fairly new grass roots movement called "One Voice". One was an Israeli from Hebrew U. the other a Palestinian from Al Quds U. I have been this enthusiastic about a movement since Projects Encounter.
One Voice is a movement that apparently has been around for a couple of years, but I had not known anything about it before. It seems to have originated as a student movement, and most of the activists seem to still be students. Membership seems to have increased dramatically in the last couple of years, and a petition they have been circulating has thus far gathered nearly Israeli and Palestinian signatures.
Neither a "peace" movement nor a "dialogue" movement, it simply demands from the Israeli, Palestinian and other government leaders moderation, pragmatism and a two state solution, and that all advocacy to that end be completely and totally non-violence.
One Voice Israel speaks to Israelis about the need to have a two state solution for the sake of Israeli self interest (eg. to reduce anti-Israeli terrorism, to end anti-Israeli boycotts in Europe, etc.) and One Voice Palestine speaks to Palestinians about the need to have a two state solution for the sake of Palestinian self interest (eg. to get rid of Israeli roadblocks, to obtain freedom of movement, to get access to their own water resources, etc). One Voice Israel does not ask that its members speak to Palestinians if they don't want to, nor does it care if they are supporters of Meretz or Yisrael Beiteinu. Similarly, One Voice Palestine does not ask that its members speak to Israelis if they don't want to, nor does it care if they are supporters of Fatah or Hamas. OTOH, for those who are interested in working or dialogue with the "other", One Voice acts does have programs to facilitate that kind of interaction.
One voice is planning simultaneous rallies on Thusday eve Oct 18, from 5 to 10 PM local time in Jericho and Tel Aviv to try to push for rapid political progress to a two state solution. The movement seems to be expecting that at the very least tens of thousands will turn out at Jericho Stadium and Yarkon Park, perhaps hundreds of thousands. There will be simultaneous ECHO rallies in London, Ottowa and Washington DC. The Washington DC rally will take place on Oct 18 from noon to 3PM local time.
The One Voice movement has thus far also managed to garner what appears to be pretty enthusiastic vocal support from a list of adult leaders and opinion makers including King Abdullah of Jordan; Klaus Schwab, President of the World Economic Forum; Sheikh Taysir al Tamimi, Chief Palestinian Islamic Justice; Rabbi David Rosen, Chairman International Jewish Committee for Interreligious Consultations; Ambassador Dennis Ross, Mideast Envoy during Clinton and Bush Administrations; Saeb Erakat, Head of Negotiations Palestinian Authority; Dov Lautman, Israeli business leader and winner of Israel Prize; Stuart Eizenstat, former US Deputy Secretary of Treasury and Undersecretary of State and Samer Khoury, a Palestinian business leader.
If you are curious check out these two websites:
http://www.onevoicemovement.org
http://www.onemillionvoices.org
Ira
#181059 Ira Weiss iraweiss@comcast.net Tue Sep 11th 05:55:53 2007
One Voice also runs repeated polls to track Israeli and Palestinian opinion, and does so using an unusual polling model that is designed to produce data useful for conflict resolution.
One Voice first polled Israelis and Palestinians to find out which issues they considered the most critical to a satisfactory peace agreeement. They then took the top ten issues and drafted compromise solutions to each along the lines of the Taba, Clinton and Geneva proposals. Now they continue to repeatedly poll people, asking whether they support or oppose the ten solutions proposed. If you support a proposal as written you simply answer yes. But if you oppose, you must estimate how strongly you oppose by assigning that provision between 1 and 100 negative points. However, you only have a total of 100 points to distribute among all your negative answers, so you have to decide which you oppose more and which you oppose less, and distribute your 100 negative votes accordingly.
The idea is to gather population data on how much opposition there is on each side to each proposal. That information would be useful to negotiators since it allows them to draft the most acceptable compromise agreement, using the polling data to estimate what trade offs would be least objectionable to the largest number of people on both sides.
If you are interested, you can become a member (no charge), sign the petition and/or take the poll by going to:
http://www.onemillionvoices.org/
One Voice Israel and One Voice Palestine also have some videos on YouTube.
Ira
#181068 ben Tue Sep 11th 07:35:01 2007
eugene
ok we are getting warm. the idf shot missiles -at what? and how is it that the syrians allowed this to happen?
#181069 Eugene Tue Sep 11th 07:57:13 2007
ben,
ok we are getting warm. the idf shot missiles -at what?
at nothing that Syria can talk about (they're not only choked with anger and shame, there's another reason the words stick in their throats)
and how is it that the syrians allowed this to happen?
that you'll have to ask will ;----)
#181075 ben Tue Sep 11th 09:06:43 2007
they're not only choked with anger and shame, there's another reason the words stick in their throats
actually there could be two reasons: 1) the target was something special 2) the idf hit the target.
#181082 Will Abbot and Costelloe's Arabian Adventure. Tue Sep 11th 12:26:32 2007
they're not only choked with anger and shame,
there's another reason the words stick in their throats
Did you steal this from a Carpenters song?
#181086 george Tue Sep 11th 14:32:55 2007
181020 ben
I suppose "partial" may be a poor term meaning the uncertainty of the moment:
http://www.israelnationalnews.com/SendMail.aspx?print=print&type=1&item=7406
#181087 george Tue Sep 11th 14:47:46 2007
180982 ben
Here it is on their own website. By the sound of his name (though, of course, he might have assumed that name later in life) it seems he might have been a Palestinian
http://www.palsolidarity.org/main/2007/09/07/ism-member-akram-killed-during-clashes-in-jenin/
and the A7 version
http://www.israelnationalnews.com/SendMail.aspx?print=print&type=0.1&item=133032
#181088 ben Tue Sep 11th 14:52:18 2007
george
re 087
the guy was a pali.
#181089 ben Tue Sep 11th 15:02:14 2007
george
a call up means a very clear action by the army. people in the reserves (starting with certain high quality units) receive phone calls from an officer telling them to report to duty, by direction of the minister of defense. this is called a zav 8. what paula describes is her son having his shabbat leave cancelled. while that is also certainly a sign that things are tense, it is not a call up.
#181090 george Tue Sep 11th 15:11:35 2007
Eugene
One hundred percent true - I barely read/view any Hebrew news-media. But it is also just as true that I have only one set of eyes even if I did. From numerous personal sources, ranging from University Professors* that I know (who spend their Sabbatical in Israel, aside from multiple yearly visits to conferences and such) down to the lowly Yeshiva Bochur/army recruit (Hesder and others) I get the same story that I posted here.
* one so "liberal" that he has even been accosted to his face about being from "Peace Now" - yet he has such stories to tell about, for one example, main-stream articles villifying the religious (such as professors et al) as being the ones repsonsible for trashing the academic levels of the universities and producing garbage etc. etc. etc.
#181092 george Tue Sep 11th 15:27:22 2007
Eugene
I obviously was not clear. I did not mean by "government controlled" that the news in the papers were written by the government, which seems to be how you are taking the phrase. The phrase means the barriers that the government puts in the path of a varied news media obtaining licensing.
#181095 Eugene Tue Sep 11th 16:41:36 2007
george, when you say "main-stream articles villifying the religious", what do you mean by "religious"? haredim? ideological settlers? all kippa-wearing israelis? what?
#181096 george Tue Sep 11th 16:47:17 2007
Eugene
It is not my definition of religious, since I did not write the articles. Each article author has his/her own definition in mind. But concerning the one example I mentioned, seeing as this was trashing the religious who teach/write in university level articles in/for the major universities in the country, one can draw one's own conclusion.
#181097 Eugene Tue Sep 11th 16:49:00 2007
The phrase means the barriers that the government puts in the path of a varied news media obtaining licensing.
george, what you wrote is this:
"...The so-called "mainstream" media (so government-controlled beyond anything in any other western democracy)"
so yes, you obviously weren't clear, if by "government-controlled mainstream media" you mean "barriers that the government puts in the path of a varied news media obtaining licensing".
So I guess you're not talking about mainstream media (which are already licensed obviously), but about "varied news media".
Now please tell us, who are these "varied news media" and how is the goi persecuting them?
#181098 Eugene Tue Sep 11th 16:53:39 2007
It is not my definition of religious, since I did not write the articles.
george, you're being coy again.
i know you didn't write the articles, but you're the one who wrote this: "main-stream articles villifying the religious".
What do you mean by this? Who are those main-stream articles vilifying?
But concerning the one example I mentioned, seeing as this was trashing the religious who teach/write in university level articles in/for the major universities in the country, one can draw one's own conclusion.
i'm sorry, i missed the link to this article, can you repost it?
#181099 george Tue Sep 11th 17:20:11 2007
Eugene
how is the goi persecuting them
I don't remember using the word "persecuting" in that context. In terms of just "who" the "varied" news media are, are you being "coy", and you just want me to mention "Arutz 7"* radio? Granted, that modern technology (internet) may have made this issue less burning than it once was, but I read were there was a failed (but serious) attempt to create a law to require a license even for the internet (for any internet broadcaster that reached a certain threshhold number of listeners). My feeling is that the failed attempt was really motivated by a desire to muzzle (possibly among others) Arutz-7.
Who are those main-stream articles vilifying?
I do not understand how I am being "coy". Each article as its own target. Between them all, the entire gamut of religion is covered.
link to this article
I never said I supplied a link. I mentioned what the professor told when he returned from Israel.
* Arutz-7 is convenient as a known name, but I have read of others (whose name I do not know right now), such Yemenite groups, who have the same problem
#181101 Tue Sep 11th 17:46:46 2007
george, did Arutz 7 get a license from the government or not?
#181102 Eugene Tue Sep 11th 17:49:07 2007
so george, you're telling me that someone told you there was some article in some newpaper in israel that vilified religious academics?
nu, so what? what does this prove?
#181103 Eugene Tue Sep 11th 17:49:43 2007
181101 above was mine
#181104 ben Tue Sep 11th 17:53:06 2007
eugene
cc george
arutz 7 does not have a license. they were offered a regional license but they wanted a national license.
#181105 ben Tue Sep 11th 17:58:07 2007
The Syrian foreign minister said the Syrian anti-aircraft radar system detected the planes when they were deep inside Syrian territory.
what took them so long? everyone was having a siesta?
#181106 george Tue Sep 11th 18:00:55 2007
Eugene
did Arutz 7 get a license from the government or not
According to http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arutz_Sheva "The Israeli government has never granted it a license to broadcast" I remember some talk about some sort of temporary (trial?) license they once had for a short period; this is aside from the 1999 incident mentioned in the article. But aside from those two occassions, they were never given a license.
As far as I know, Israel never passed a law requiring a license for internet broadcasting.
#181107 Eugene Tue Sep 11th 18:04:10 2007
george, from the wikipedia link you posted:
"In February 1999, the Knesset passed a law legalizing the operation of Arutz Sheva and absolving it of earlier illegal broadcasting, but this was appealed to the Israeli Supreme Court which ruled the law null and void in March, 2002. "
#181108 george Tue Sep 11th 18:10:02 2007
While looking for wikipedia article, I came across this
http://www.museum.tv/archives/etv/I/htmlI/israel/israel.htm
#181109 george Tue Sep 11th 18:12:24 2007
ben
Yes, regional licenses are granted much more easily. The question I woould ask: does the audience size and location (as evidenced during the broadcasts from the ship) justify a national license.
#181110 george Tue Sep 11th 18:38:23 2007
181107 Eugene
I do not understand your point.
The "Likud" under Netanyahu were in power when the law was passed (it went something like - if you operated for so many years successfully you could get a license) When the Supreme Court cancelled the law, Sharon was not interested and was soon enough to break the Likud up anyway.
The same Supreme Court ruled, for example, that taxi drivers who had broken the law and operated illegally without a license for "x" number of years are to be rewarded with a license because there is a law on the books that granted them a license under the given situation. (That is not in the article - it is something I remeber from the news.) Yet the court then rules that for the radio station in question such a law cannot be tolerated. (Yes, in order to make the law appealling it was widened to included a few more stations than just Arutz-7, and so those stations also ended up losing, but that is just incidental) Wonder why some people feel this is deliberately aimed against Arutz-7 for ideological reasons.
#181114 ben Tue Sep 11th 19:39:09 2007
george
re 110
it seems that you are oversimplifying the case. it doesn't seem to me reasonable to make a comparison between the case of arutz 7 and the taxi drivers without being a lawyer or someone who understands the legal background. i am not that person and my memory of the events is not great. however i do know that the government argued that the law passed was illegal because it contravened a previous, more incompassing law - the second channel law. that was the law that gave certain rights to various media bodies, rights which these bodies paid for.
#181115 ben Tue Sep 11th 19:48:03 2007
cnn reports that the israeli fighters hit their target somewhere in eastern syria and that israeli ground troops were in that area at the time. supposedly the americans are very satisfied with the operation.
so where did the ground troops come from? were they flown in from iraq?
this is actually getting interesting. what the heck was worth the risk of a war with syria? or even having the planes shot down?
#181116 Eugene Tue Sep 11th 20:06:49 2007
I do not understand your point.
george, i do not understand your points either.
first it turns out that your statement about "government-controlled" "mainstream media" is not about mainstream media at all, it's about "varied media". Now it also turns out that "varied media" only means Arutz 7 radio.
So based on what happened to Arutz 7 you're vilifying the main stream media in israel?
now you've switched the argument from the misdeeds of "mainstream media" to the misdeeds of the "government".
it's enough to get one confused as to what the point you're trying to make is. but i think i got it: basically it's that the "religious" (who you can't define) are persecuted by israel's mainstream media and government. you just won't come out and say it, and use all kind of hints and innuendo, but i think that's the gist of your confused and confusing posts here.
#181121 george Tue Sep 11th 21:03:22 2007
181114 ben
Yes, communication is more complex than a taxi license. But it sounds very strange that someone paid for the power to decide who can be licensed and who cannot?* The argument I read was that because this a government controlled issue there had to be tender (whatever that is suppose to me) and ho through that method.
* I tried a google search but the results were fee-based Anyone out there have access to any of these
http://links.jstor.org/sici?sici=0002-7162(199801)555%3C163%3ATPOMCI%3E2.0.CO%3B2-J
http://www.highbeam.com/doc/1P1-3600810.html
#181122 george Tue Sep 11th 21:08:02 2007
181116 Eugene
Then I guess we will both have to not understand.
#181123 ben Tue Sep 11th 21:13:21 2007
But it sounds very strange that someone paid for the power to decide who can be licensed and who cannot?*
that is not it exactly. the group that won the tender had certain exclusice rights to broadcast. but like i said, i don't know the details exactly.
issue there had to be tender (whatever that is suppose to me)
a tender is a public announcement for bids.
#181126 Eugene Tue Sep 11th 21:22:25 2007
Then I guess we will both have to not understand.
no, i think i actually understand what your beef is: as i said, it's that the government and mainstream media in israel are vilifying the religious community there.
i just don't believe you made a good case for it.
#181162 Eugene Wed Sep 12th 04:04:06 2007
ben,
actually there could be two reasons: 1) the target was something special 2) the idf hit the target.
ok, now we know 2) is the case.
we also know 1) must be the case, but we don't know what exactly yet and the Syrians don't seem to want to talk about it
Maybe one can learn something from this:
"The only countries who expressed solidarity with Syria were Iran and North Korea. Russia issued a condemnation of sorts."
#181192 ben Wed Sep 12th 13:10:24 2007
The New York Times on Wednesday quoted a Bush Administration official as saying Israel recently photographed possible nuclear installations in Syria.
ok well i guess that this is a target worth risking war.
however, let me the first to voice a small doubt: the syrians are so stupid as to have a nuclear facility above ground, vunerable to idf bombers? even if it was in eastern syria, why would they think that they are so invunerable?
#181193 ben Wed Sep 12th 13:11:11 2007
correction:
let me be the first . . .
#181195 ben Wed Sep 12th 13:20:19 2007
george
Yes, communication is more complex than a taxi license.
more complex i don't know. but the laws are different and that is the reason why a comparison is impossible without more background knowledge.
#181196 ben something completely different Wed Sep 12th 13:31:56 2007
the little bit that has leaked out (assuming that it is accurate) about some agreement that mazen and olmert will sign is sounding more and more like the beilin-what's his name agreement.
#181198 Will Sheckel for your thoughts. Wed Sep 12th 13:52:39 2007
Over the last few days there has been a whole bunch of silly emmissions as to why Israel dropped bombs in the middle of nowhere. You've got your nuclear installations that suddenly just popped up like a dam mushroom from mowhere. The Koreans are off-loading some spare nuclear material to Syria and iran, whatever the hell that's got to do with anything. We have the failsafe, iron clad, get out of jail free, ones size fits all excuse, arms supply to Hizballah from Syria or was it Iran , depending on which report you read.
I've even got one I thought up myself , in that one of Israels spy drones came down out there so they had to blow it to smithereens before the bad guys got their maulers on it.
But here's one thing for sure, it's a win, win situation for israel and that is a truism. They just ripped the piss out of Syria and got away with it and they've set a precedent for unilateral instantaneous attacks that the US doesn't oppose. It sends all the right messages to Iran.
But even better still, its a great way of winding up Hizballah without falling foul of the UN. If Hizbollah get the feeling that they need to dig in in the South because somethings going to happen in the near future than they have to go through 13000 UN troops and thats going to make them even more unpopular. The last thing Israel wants to do is start antagonising Hizballah directly in Lebanon over the heads of the little Blue Helmets. But If they get Hizbollah to mobilise "first" then the Blue Helmets will do the ground fighting for Israel and everything that happens after that i.e. major bombing operations etc. can be made to look like an unfortunate but necessary evil on behalf of Israel. Perhaps there was no further meaning to this little raid other than what they have already clearly achieved.