#192800 Joe Wed Jun 11th 14:05:58 2008
Hello Ira,
Hope all is well.
#192801 Jaron Wed Jun 11th 16:13:06 2008
Dan,
Put the Jewish population of Hebron/Al-Khalil under Palestinian rule and watch how long they remain there. About 5 minutes, IMO.
In 192794 Will wrote: "You say you yearn for the day that the US shrugs off it's oil dependencey, yet you are putting your body in the way of harm to reinforce the methodology of the most oil-thirsty administration the world has ever known. You and Uncle Sam have differnces but you turn up for duty."
As an American it is my right to have opinions different from that of my government. As a civil servant I am obligated to obey the orders of that government. Some orders I agree with and some I don't.
Will wrote: "Back in the fantasy world, You claim your biggest hiccup with Palestinian Nationalism is the Right of Return for indigenous Palestinians to the Israeli State,"
IMO that is biggest concrete issue, with the larger and more diffuse Arab cultural rejection being another problem. Put it this way. No Jew I know of says Syria, Jordan or Egypt have no legitimate right to exist. Many Jews (myself among them) believe Palestine has a right to exist. The reverse is not true. The neighbors at any real cultural level only tolerate the presensce of Israel because they can't destroy it by coup de main.
Will wrote: "yet you have still have to say anything comparable in relation to the strangulation of the territory allotted for the Palestine State under a deluge of foreign "zionist" immigration. You have nothing to say about the De Facto Annexation of the Jordan Valley , Palestine's vital International border."
Oh, that. That is simple. Order the IDF to leave and it will. The GOI can by some combination of request or force ethnically cleanse the Jews. Or it can just leave and any area that fall under Palestinian rule will be cleared of Jews in short order by neighbors. No problem. Just repeat Gaza.
Will wrote: "You seem to have an absrtact view of the indigenous of the region - as though they dont qualify for the same callibre of Nationalism as you do."
I support creation of a Palestinian state.
Will wrote: "Comfort yourself with the knowledge that this level of discourse is below your enemy's radar. You can talk self serving blather like this forever and it wont strenghten the Jihad at all."
And when have I made any claim to be more than one guy doing what I can in my small way?
#192802 ben Wed Jun 11th 16:25:40 2008
joe
i don't see how those figures show that the unemployment rate is not rising.
#192803 ben Wed Jun 11th 16:27:00 2008
joe
btw you better get yourself and your other half here quickly. if the dollar gets any weaker you'll have to take out a bank loan to finance the trip.
#192804 Dan Israeli 4 Peace Wed Jun 11th 16:47:13 2008
Jaron typed:
"Put the Jewish population of Hebron/Al-Khalil under Palestinian rule and watch how long they remain there. About 5 minutes, IMO."
With respect, your opinion, humble or not, is nonsense. Fact is, there is no "Palestinian state", Hebron is not under "Palestinian rule" but under Israeli occupation, obvious to everyone except the totally ignorant or demented.
Yet we hear not a word, not a concern, from you about the fate of Hebron's Palestinians actually suffering day after day at the hands of fanatic Jewish settlers in Hebron, just more stupidity about "no living Jews" and the like.
Bottom line - your racist sterotyping of Palestinians displays more concern about what you project "would" happen (in a non-existent scenario) than about what actually IS happening to the victims of Israeli occupation, Hebron's Palestinians.
#192805 ben Wed Jun 11th 17:02:16 2008
Fact is, there is no "Palestinian state", Hebron is not under "Palestinian rule" but under Israeli occupation, obvious to everyone except the totally ignorant or demented. . . .from you about the fate of Hebron's Palestinians actually suffering day after day at the hands of fanatic Jewish settlers in Hebron,
the vast majority of palistinians live in h1, they may never see a settler in their daily routine.
#192807 Will Deranged imposter. Wed Jun 11th 17:35:01 2008
You mean (Evil Will)
#192808 Will Wed Jun 11th 17:38:32 2008
Evil Will,
How Did Eugene make it onto the list of Normal people ?
#192809 Joe Wed Jun 11th 19:43:50 2008
i don't see how those figures show that the unemployment rate is not rising.
Ben -
Of course they're rising. They're rising from historic LOW unemployment rates. Most people forget (willingly) that unemployment has been very low in recent years.
IMHO, when unemployment goes from a low of 4.8% to 5.4%, it not a big deal.
BTW - What the unemployment rate in Israel?
Also, they're predicting the dollar will catch up to the Euro toward the end of the summer.
www.forecasts.org/euro.htm
Dan -
I have to take up for Jaron. He's right and your wrong. The Palestinians are unwilling to live in peace with Israel. Plain and simple.
#192810 Dan Israeli 4 Peace Wed Jun 11th 20:48:58 2008
Joe typed:
cc: Jaron
"I have to take up for Jaron. He's right and your wrong."
Mea culpa, I mean, who can argue with such an astute deconstruction of the basic facts I presented in my earlier post?
Be that as it may, I still contend that there is no Palestinian state, that Israel, not the Palestinians, control Hebron and the rest of the West Bank, and that Israeli settlers continue to harass and oppress the Palestinians of Hebron while the IOF turns a blind eye, while Jaron obsesses about "no living Jews" etc.
"The Palestinians are unwilling to live in peace with Israel. Plain and simple"
Simple indeed - simplistic even. What one would expect from a simpleton.
And as plain as the nose on your face
#192811 Will Wed Jun 11th 21:29:53 2008
Hi dee ho there Dan,
Just curious, Where in Israel are you based ?
#192812 Will Wed Jun 11th 21:53:32 2008
Jaron,
I know and accept that you are just one single guy doing what you can in your own small way, so am I. But I dont yet know if you actually support the war in Iraq - a Neocon creation whom you say you dont support. You seem to accept that its gone all wrong , yet there you are putting yourself in harms way progressing it along its doomed route in your own little way. Its a contradiction.If you are forced to be there and you are opposed to it then just say so. But that doesnt seem to be the case.
You say you support a Palestinian state, yet you dont seem to support any of the tenets of such a states existence. Chiefly among those being an absolute nessecity for a viable territory with international borders. You even go so far as to imply that to move the settlers out of the required territory would be an act of ethnic cleansing. It wouldnt be ethnic cleansing if the US where to start rounding up the millions of illegal immigtrants in the US, it wou,d be perfectly understandable legal actions. Yours are not the words of one who supports an independent Palestinians State, It's another blatant contradiction.
You say that the biggest issue for Israel's survival is Al-Awda and the possibility of large numbers of Palestinians upsetting the Jewish demographic and making the state unviable, yet half a million non-Palestinians have forced their way into the Palestinian State, making it unviable , but somehow it's only a side issue for Palestinian Nationalism. See what I mean, matter of utter survival for Israel - matter of small consequence for Palestine. Yet another contradiction.
Your arguments defy your stated position to the point where it appears that your rhetoric only serves one purpose . To keep you happily in a fantasy world.
#192813 Dan Israeli 4 Peace Wed Jun 11th 21:53:42 2008
Will:
Born and raised in Kiryat Tivon - based now in a large, English-speaking country
I am a long-time lurker here and last posted many years ago - introduced to this forum by a friend
#192814 Will Thanks for that. Wed Jun 11th 21:56:16 2008
#192815 Will Wed Jun 11th 21:56:56 2008
Dan
With friends like that.... !
#192816 ben Wed Jun 11th 22:10:10 2008
joe
6.3%. Aha! you may say, higher than the us. true. but your rate went up last month while ours is still going down. so we'll see. if in the next month or two the rate in the us keeps going up, then you can eat your words.
#192819 Ira Thu Jun 12th 05:17:09 2008
I think that Zionism should refocus on making peace not war.
Will,
Zionism was a movement to re-establish a Jewish state in the world. Zionism achieved it's goal in 1948. Therefore Zionists in the original sense of the word no longer exist. What exist today are those who believe that justice demands that the only Jewish state in the world not be annihilated and those who believe the opposite, i.e. that justice demands the annihilation of the only Jewish state in the world.
Ira
#192820 Jaron Thu Jun 12th 09:55:22 2008
Dan,
It is very easy to lurk and take drive by pot shots. Why not put some of your ideas up here?
In 192812 Will wrote: "I know and accept that you are just one single guy doing what you can in your own small way, so am I. But I dont yet know if you actually support the war in Iraq - a Neocon creation whom you say you dont support."
I am curious how you would define "Neocon". In US domestic policy terms I am actually considered a liberal by many. I am environmentally green, support trade unions and believe in some amount of state funded social services. Those are not conservative views. On to the Iraq war. I agree with and support the war. My reasons are as follows: 1. the Iraqi people deserved to be rid of Sadam, and this was the only way to do it, 2. he retained the brain power to rapidly rebuild a WMD capacity as soon as the then crumbling sanctions collapsed, 3. I believe that democracy is in fact a contagion and that Arabs also have the right to vote.
Now the caveats. The war was handled so incompetently at the top level that it almost failed. Now we are in an endgame trying to salvage what we can. I realize it is an uphill task, but the test of believing in something is that you work for it not only when you are winning, but when you are not. That lesson you can learn from any local Republican.
Will wrote: "You seem to accept that its gone all wrong , yet there you are putting yourself in harms way progressing it along its doomed route in your own little way. Its a contradiction."
Does the above statement clarify any?
Will wrote: "If you are forced to be there and you are opposed to it then just say so. But that doesnt seem to be the case."
I am obligated to be here, but I also happen to agree with what I am doing. There are others here who do not agree with this war and others who are just apolitical civil servants who care more about sports.
Will wrote: "You say you support a Palestinian state, yet you dont seem to support any of the tenets of such a states existence. Chiefly among those being an absolute nessecity for a viable territory with international borders."
Huh? I actually don't care what the borders of Palestine turn out to be. Whatever the GOI and the PA agree on is fine with me. That can be the entire west bank, the Jordan river, heck throw in areas currently on the Israeli side of green line. No problem. Land isn't the problem.
Will wrote: " You even go so far as to imply that to move the settlers out of the required territory would be an act of ethnic cleansing. It wouldnt be ethnic cleansing if the US where to start rounding up the millions of illegal immigtrants in the US, it wou,d be perfectly understandable legal actions."
There are many advocates for undocument immigrants ("illegal aliens" in the phrase of the US right) who would strongly oppose deporting those folks. I for one believe in making them US citizens and letting them stay. Sorry, you can't paint me as right winger so easily. 
In terms of Palestine, Israel has plenty of Palestinian voters. Why is it such a horrible idea for Palestine to have a few Jewish ones?
Will wrote: "Yours are not the words of one who supports an independent Palestinians State, It's another blatant contradiction."
If your favorite victims just can't tolerate any Jews, then by all means remove them as part of the treaty if that is what it takes.
Will wrote: "You say that the biggest issue for Israel's survival is Al-Awda and the possibility of large numbers of Palestinians upsetting the Jewish demographic and making the state unviable,"
Yes.
Will wrote: " yet half a million non-Palestinians have forced their way into the Palestinian State, making it unviable , but somehow it's only a side issue for Palestinian Nationalism. See what I mean, matter of utter survival for Israel - matter of small consequence for Palestine. Yet another contradiction."
As I said, if the Palestinians refuse to have Jews, it would be their state to decide, just as Israel should have the right to say who immigrates to her.
#192821 Will Enough , Please ! Thu Jun 12th 12:33:35 2008
Jaron,
You are either being hugely disingenuous or blatantly ignorant when you compare the 1.2million Palestinian citizens of Israel with the half million illegal immigrants currently living in the OPT. The key differnce is that all the settler colonists are illegally present in the OPT in violation of International law and as a direct impediment to the internationally agreed best resolution to this conflict i.e. The Two State Solution.The Palestinian citizens of Israel in general are the indigenous of the region who predate the State of Israel and avoided expulsion from their homeland in 1947 - 48. If you cannot see the difference here then the debate is pointless. Comparing the two is an insult to all our intelligence. Removing the Settlers from the Lands of the Pelastinian State is not a bigotted lifestyle choice for the Palestiniasn, it's a responsibility for anyone who one day hopes for a peaceful resolution along the lines of the Two State Solution to support their removal. If you dont support their removal then that too is fine but you are by deduction a supporter of the One State Solution, which will involve a radical revision of the principles of the so called Jewish State to accommodate an Arab Majority.
What you would refer to as National Suicide. You need to go away and do some homework on this because your conflation of these two demographics is grating, ideologicaly pea-brained and counterproductive.If you love Israel then you better start figuring out where the Palestinian State is going to go and pressing for that space to be made available for development for the habitaiton of the Palestinians. Arguing for an Arab agreement to return only to the boundaries of a Palestinian State whilst the only avaialble territory for that state is being colonised, occupied and sliced up with walls, fences, barriers, roadblocks etc. is just plain stupid.
Are you going to continue on with this stupid assertion ?
A neocon, in simplistic terms, is someone who aligns themselves with the policies and ideologies of the current Bush Administration i.e. the use of violence and bullshit to bend the world into a shape that suits Corporate interests at the expense of all democratic principles.
Your presence in the ME supporting a violent attack on the local people whilst trying to bullshit rings around me in relation to illegal Israeli settlements is putting you pretty much slap-bang in the middle of that picture right now.
#192822 Dan Israeli 4 Peace Thu Jun 12th 13:32:47 2008
Ira typed:
\"What exist today are those who believe that justice demands that the only Jewish state in the world not be annihilated and those who believe the opposite\"
No - what exists today are those who are committed to honest, non-propagandistic debate and peace based on justice and equality, versus those who spread lies, propaganda and sophistry (and use the word \"annihilated\" for added effect and accuse their opponents of advocating \"annihilation\") to score cheap points.
Which are you?
#192823 george Thu Jun 12th 14:49:20 2008
Two versions of the "same" (?) speach:
www.24.com/news/?p=worlda&i=940935
"our brother, the Kenyan with American nationality"
africa.reuters.com/wire/news/usnL11613375.html
"We fear that Obama will feel that, because he is black with an inferiority complex, this will make him behave worse than the whites"
And as an aside, did he really say this:
"Obama offered $300 billion in aid to Israel"?
And this gem to round it off:
"We suspect he may fear being killed by Israeli agents and meet the same fate as (assassinated former U.S. President John Fitzgerald) Kennedy when he promised to look into Israel's nuclear program,"
#192824 Jaron Thu Jun 12th 17:37:50 2008
In 192821 Will wrote: "You are either being hugely disingenuous or blatantly ignorant when you compare the 1.2million Palestinian citizens of Israel with the half million illegal immigrants currently living in the OPT. The key differnce is that all the settler colonists are illegally present in the OPT in violation of International law and as a direct impediment to the internationally agreed best resolution to this conflict i.e. The Two State Solution."
I just love your choice of words to capitalize. A lot of those Settler Colonialists have been born in the OPT (nice acronym) for going on 3 generations now. You feel that they must be removed. If that is what is ultimately required, then it may have to happen. But proponents of Awda are in turn proposing that Palestinians who have never actually set foot anywhere in Palestine/Israel should be allowed to immigrate to the state of Israel (not just Palestine), over the objections of the Israeli electorate and this is somehow perfectly natural and normal. My idea that Jews can live in Palestine (whether it happens or not) is no more absurd than that vision of Awda.
Will wrote: "The Palestinian citizens of Israel in general are the indigenous of the region who predate the State of Israel and avoided expulsion from their homeland in 1947 - 48."
Jews lived in Hebron before their expulsion in those days as well for several centuries. They also lived in the old city of Jerusalem for several centuries before 1948, were 100% expelled from 48-67, and will likely be expelled again from areas of Jerusalem that fall within the borders of Palestine. The "native" argument doesn't work here. I can make it just as convincingly. The reality is that Jews, regardless of where they were born and how long they have live under a particular roof are going to have to move. The Palestinian population base will stay right where it is.
Will wrote: "If you cannot see the difference here then the debate is pointless. Comparing the two is an insult to all our intelligence. Removing the Settlers from the Lands of the Pelastinian State is not a bigotted lifestyle choice for the Palestiniasn, it's a responsibility for anyone who one day hopes for a peaceful resolution along the lines of the Two State Solution to support their removal."
And that is indeed what will likely happen. If it has to happen for a real Final Status End Of Conflict (my choice in capitalizations) then so be it. But I still feel it is a bigotted lifestyle choice on the Palestinian part that shows the true nature of Palestinian nationalism in terms of its willingness to accept the "other".
Will wrote: "If you dont support their removal then that too is fine but you are by deduction a supporter of the One State Solution, which will involve a radical revision of the principles of the so called Jewish State to accommodate an Arab Majority.
What you would refer to as National Suicide."
As I said before, IMO both Palestine and Israel should have absolute control over who composes their population and who immigrates. I just find the Palestinian version indeed very bigotted, especially when contrasted with the Israeli model, that while flawed at least allows the "other" to remain. Ultimately it is their state to decide.
Will wrote: "You need to go away and do some homework on this because your conflation of these two demographics is grating, ideologicaly pea-brained and counterproductive."
Will, that I find grating is when people paint Palestinian nationalism as this sweet innocent gentle vegetarian thing seeking only "justice" for a noble cause, when it is in fact nothing more than one more form of bigoted nationalism that enjoys (by virtue of having Jews as its "opposing other" that all nationalisms have) support far beyond that allotted to any other stateless ethnic nationalism on this earth. This is a movement that has a spectrum of goals. The minimimal goal is a Palestinian state. Sounds fine. Many Jews agree with that, myself included. The maximal agenda of Palestinian nationalism is far more evil (from my perspective). Hopefully the maximal agenda can be thwarted. That understanding drives my position on the demographics. Whether you like it or not, agree or not, many Jews share that understanding.
Will wrote: "If you love Israel then you better start figuring out where the Palestinian State is going to go and pressing for that space to be made available for development for the habitaiton of the Palestinians. Arguing for an Arab agreement to return only to the boundaries of a Palestinian State whilst the only avaialble territory for that state is being colonised, occupied and sliced up with walls, fences, barriers, roadblocks etc. is just plain stupid."
As I have said before, I don't care what the borders are. Dramatically expand the areas allotted to Palestine beyond what is in the WB and Gaza. No problem. Whatever the GOI and the PA agree to I will support in terms of borders. Land isn't the issue. People are. The Palestinians understand this better than you do in their refusal to allow any real Jewish population (a few single collaborators excepted).
Will wrote: "Are you going to continue on with this stupid assertion ?"
My assertion is not stupid. This isn't about International Law, really. International Law is a fungible tool for whoever writes it, interprets it and can muster the most political influence at the UN. It is about as impartial British Crown Law was in Ireland in the bad old days. This is about bodies on the ground. This is why Palestinian leaders have, from the dawn of Palestinian national identity in the 1800's to today consistently opposed ANY Jewish immigration and vigorously went after the Jews who were there.
Will wrote: "A neocon, in simplistic terms, is someone who aligns themselves with the policies and ideologies of the current Bush Administration i.e. the use of violence and bullshit to bend the world into a shape that suits Corporate interests at the expense of all democratic principles."
How democratic was Iraq under Sadam? Who will defend the powerless individual? The UN? I have some words for you: Srebrenica, Rwanda, Sadam Hussein, Kosovo, Darfur and Tibet. Show me how the International Community helped in any of these cases. It took the US to help out in some of them. Where the US didn't act, who else did? No one.
Will wrote: "Your presence in the ME supporting a violent attack on the local people whilst trying to bullshit rings around me in relation to illegal Israeli settlements is putting you pretty much slap-bang in the middle of that picture right now."
My presence here isn't even a blip on the radar of history. Neither is yours unless you wield some political or social power I am unaware of.
#192826 Jaron Neocon? Fri Jun 13th 11:38:47 2008
Will,
Let me give you a scenario. The Tyranny of Berzerkistan leaves its neighbors alone. It has great natural resources that net the goverment (but not the people) a good income from foreign trade. The Ruler of Berzerkistan merrily and openly slaughters his ethnic minority communities. He does not cross an international border and insists that absolute state sovereignty allows him to kill this domestic minority group.
The traditional US conservative response to this is to let it happen. Not our problem just so the oil, gold, gas or whatever else flows.
The traditional western left approach is to ignore it unless the Ruler speaks Hebrew or English. Berzekistan is irrelevant. Look at how oppressed the Palestinians are!
The UN response is to do nothing. Rwanda and Darfur spring to mind as recent examples.
Only those dreaded Neocons would actually consider taking concrete action to put a stop to it.
Yes, getting involved in such a matter is complex and requires proper planning and preparation, which America sucks at. But the fact remains that ONLY your dreaded Neocons would actually DO SOMETHING to stop the evil.
#192827 Jaron email Fri Jun 13th 11:43:17 2008
Will,
I finally have time to do email and your address has gone into forum history. Send me an email at krovos@hotmail.com or please repost your address.
#192828 Joe One man's propaganda is another man's annihilation Fri Jun 13th 14:12:38 2008
Dan states:
No - what exists today are those who are committed to honest, non-propagandistic debate and peace based on justice and equality, versus those who spread lies, propaganda and sophistry (and use the word \"annihilated\" for added effect and accuse their opponents of advocating \"annihilation\") to score cheap points.
Dan -
1.) Who do you think is NOT committed "peace based on justice and equality"?
2.) Who do you think is "non-propagandistic"?
3.) Why is Ira's use of the word "annihilation" (a word you believe he used for "added effect ... to score cheap points") a misnomer if several terror organizations are striving to do just that including a sitting member of the UN?
Perhaps your ideas are propaganda and we're just telling the truth. Is that possible?
#192829 Joe Fri Jun 13th 14:14:37 2008
The daily barrage of Qassams and Katyushas continues despite Dan's belief to the contrary:
www.jpost.com/servlet/Satellite?cid=1212659716281&pagename=JPost%2FJPArticle%2FShowFull
#192830 Joe More Propaganda NewZ Fri Jun 13th 14:25:27 2008
Daniel Pipes write an interesting article:
If George W. Bush's term ends with a McCain victory, Bush will likely punt, allowing McCain to decide on the next steps. But Obama's intention to continue with current failed policies suggests that, if he wins, and despite the tradition of outgoing presidents not undertaking major initiatives in their final weeks, Bush might initiate military action against Iran.
www.danielpipes.org/article/5585
#192831 Will The one that got away. Fri Jun 13th 15:33:42 2008
Daniel Pipes ? Interesting ? Did he get VD or something ?
In the Meantime.... Real, Actual News coming in from Europe......
It would appear that a tiny Island of drunks and half wits which somehow became attached to the side of Europe some year back is to be surgically removed soon. Apparently the rabble that inhabit this island whilst usually content with wrecking their own homes or a public bar after a good night out went a step too far and wrecked the whole of Europe yesterday. Governments around Europe are reported to be discussing an immeidate surgical procedure to remove the wart which is obviously malignant to the beautiful if somewhat cumbersome body of New Europe.
Early counts are showing a clear trend that Ireland has in fact rejected the Lisbon Treaty upsetting plans to turn Europe into a mutant foreign cousin of the United States.
The reason why these uneducated gobshites have failed to see the benefit of being a Eurobot is being mooted across the country by the avvy politicians and economists. Yep, we couldnt understand it. Thats the official reason. We couldn't see how good it was going to be for us because we were too busy peddling myths and gossip down the local pub about us losing our neutrality. We were apparently convinced we would be forced to accept abortion , higher corporation tax and conscription. Such a bunch of fukn eejits are we.
The official message coming down from above is -
"youve done it now ye thick arseholes, they're gonna chuck us out of Europe"
Well good says I for one, I never wanted your stinkin money anyway and now it's all gone. Hahaha !
#192832 Mark Fri Jun 13th 17:47:06 2008
"Daniel Pipes ? Interesting ? Did he get VD or something ?"
Joe, you better get yourself checked
#192833 Joe Fri Jun 13th 18:17:11 2008
Daniel Pipes ? Interesting ? Did he get VD or something?
Mark, Will -
You don't like Daniel Pipes? Oh well.
I know you'd fall in love with Daniel Pipes if he advocated jihad against Israel and indiscriminate killing of Jews. But, I suppose, not all Jews are suicidal. So I guess we all better get ourselves checked.
Which doctor do you recommend Mark? Mengele?
#192834 Will Racism is also infectious. Fri Jun 13th 18:41:35 2008
Joey Joe jo,
Its not that I dont like Pipes its that he irrelevant. He's a racist. It pretty much begins and ends there but if he were to get VD ,lordy lord forbid, then it would be interesting to see if he lived on as a horribly mutated freak racist or became a dead racist.
But either way, as he always has his head up his own ass I think it would be pretty much impossible for yout to catch anything like that off him.
#192835 Joe Iwish Wacism NewZ Fri Jun 13th 19:00:06 2008
He's a racist.
Will -
Could you prove Daniel Pipes' racism by quoting a handful of his racist statements.
Coming fom you, I'd say that's a nice example of "irony" if I ever saw one.
Also, for each of Pipes' racist statements, I'll post 5 racist statements from the PA you so admire.
#192836 Will Ooooh, fun ! Fri Jun 13th 19:43:35 2008
Yes joey,
I'll have a little reccy and come back with five racist statements from that man's bilge Pipes. It a sacrafice on my behalf but I'll do it.
But not until first you show me two things:
One , where I expressed admiration for the PA.
Two, how "irony" could be found in my statement. I want a proper explanation of the type of irony to which you refer and the exact manner in which it is manifest in this exchange.
If theres one think I hate more than people abusing Palestinian rights, it's people abusing the word Irony so get it right when you explain it.
#192839 Jaron Sat Jun 14th 19:38:38 2008
Will,
The last several posts don't sound like you. I believe ye are being impersonated. 
#192840 Walter Ruby walterruby@gmail.com Sat Jun 14th 19:58:56 2008
Dear All,
Sorry to all for having have been out of touch for so long. Nice to see that these discussions are continuing after so many years. I must say I miss the camaraderie and shared purpose that we all had, regardless of political position. Encounter's on-the-ground contributions, including the camp in Spain, is also unforgettable.
I wish to inform all of you that I am presently serving as Muslim-Jewish Relations Program Officer for the Foundation for Ethnic Understanding, a NY-based not-for-profit headed By Rabbi Marc Schneier, head of the American-section of the World Jewsih Congress and Russell Simmons, the hip-hop impressario.
Created by Joe Papp back in the late 1980's to work on the issue of Black-Jewish relations, the FFEU is now focusing much of its energy on the issue of Muslim-Jewish relations in North America. We sponsored the first-annual National Summit of Imams and Rabbis last November and on November 21-23, 2008, will be sponsoring a Weekend of Twinning of Mosques and Synagogues Across North America on the theme of "Confronting Islamophobia and Anti-Semitism." The idea is that synagogues and mosques across the continent should up that weekend for a program on that issue and then hopefully maintain ongoing ties to work on that and other issues of relevance to both congregations. We already have synagogues and mosques in the following cities and states signed on to this endeavor: New York City, Long Island, Connecticut, New Jersey, Philadelphia, Boston, Baltimore, Toronto, Detroit, Minneapolis, Dallas, Los Angeles and the Bay area. We hope to get many more in the days ahead.
I would be very gratified if any of you living in North America who think that your own mosque or synagogue might be interested in taking part in the Weekend of Twinning will get in touch with me asap at my e-mail above or at 917 294-1772. I will send another e-mail after this one with guidelines for the event which you can share with relevant people at your congregation. In the guielines I have deleted the links to the various organizations to comply with Encounter ground rules.
Best,
Walter
former and forever Encounternik
#192841 Walter Ruby walterruby@gmail.com Sat Jun 14th 20:00:22 2008
CONTENT AND GUIDELINES FOR THE WEEKEND OF TWINNING OF MOSQUES AND SYNAGOGUES ACROSS NORTH AMERICA –NOVEMBER 21-23, 2008
By Walter Ruby
Muslim Jewish Relations Program Officer
The Foundation for Ethnic Understanding, New York
In a historic event aimed at strengthening Muslim-Jewish relations in the United States and Canada, a minimum of 25 mosques and 25 synagogues across the continent will link up for a Weekend of Twinning of Mosques and Synagogues Across North America on November 21-23, 2008.
During the Weekend of Twinning, mosques and synagogues in cities across the two countries will join together on a one-on-one basis for a continent–wide discussion on the theme “Confronting Islamophobia and Anti-Semitism Together”. While each of the twinned synagogues and mosques will be able to design their own programs, all will focus their discussions on Islamophobia and Anti-Semitism and what our two communities can do together to combat both. Twinned synagogues and mosques can hold their programs on Friday night, November 21, Saturday, November 22 or Sunday, November 23. To date, mosques and synagogues in Los Angeles, Orange County, CA, Dallas, Philadelphia, Baltimore, Boston, Detroit, Toronto, New York, Long Island, New Jersey, and Connecticut have agreed to participate.
The Foundation for Ethnic Understanding (FFEU), a New York and Washington, D.C.-based national non-profit dedicated to strengthening relations between ethnic communities in the United States, will play the chief coordinating role in the Weekend of Twinning, in consultation with the Islamic Society of North America (ISNA), and the Muslim Public Affairs Council (MPAC), two of the principal Muslim organizations in North America.
The Weekend of Twinning will take place less than two months after the airing on CNN and worldwide media of a public service announcement (PSA) featuring American imams and rabbis denouncing Islamophobia and Anti-Semitism. The PSA, which was filmed in April, 2008 in New York by the FFEU with the participation of ISNA and MPAC, will run during Ramadan and the High Holy Days (from mid-September to early October, 2008). We believe the PSA will build public awareness of and peak interest in the Weekend of Twinning of Mosques and Synagogues Across North America.
PREPARATION FOR THE WEEKEND OF TWINNING—SETTING GUIDELINES
Synagogues and mosques that decide to twin with each other during the Weekend of Twinning should be relatively close geographically so that members of the two congregations can meet several times before the event. It is suggested that members of mosques invite synagogue members to join them at the Iftaar, the fast-breaking meal during Ramadan and that Jews invite Muslims to a festive meal in a sukkah (hut) during the holiday of Succot. After breaking bread together and enjoying each other’s company, leaders of both congregations should follow up with planning the specific details for the Weekend of Twinning.
It is strongly encouraged that the two sides adopt a set of communication guidelines to govern exchanges during the Weekend of Twinning. Congregations may also want to consider whether to retain trained facilitators for the event.
While members of participating synagogues and mosques are encouraged to acknowledge the pain of the Palestinian-Israeli conflict, it should not become the focus of conversation during our event. Rather, we should concentrate in this and subsequent joint programs on strengthening relations between Muslims and Jews in North America and inspiring others around the world to build ties of communication and cooperation.
SUGGESTED MODELS FOR CREATING PROGRAMS ON THE THEME OF ‘CONFRONTING ISLAMOPHOBIA AND ANTI-SEMITISM TOGETHER’
In the coming weeks, we will be providing our participating mosques and synagogues with detailed information on several models they may use in conducting their discussion of Islamophobia and Anti-Semitism. Among the programs we will make available to participants:
• Recognizing and Countering Antisemitism and Islamophobia: A Workshop on Building Allies, by Karen Mock and Zubeda Vahed of Toronto, Canada. Close collaborators in the field of multicultural and anti-racist education for more than twenty years, Mock and Vahed focus on developing a shared understanding of the terms anti-Semitism and Islamophobia, and share with their audiences strategies for dealing jointly with incidents of anti-Semitism and Islamophobia, including hate crimes. It is anticipated that a CD of the Mock and Vahed workshop will be made available to mosques and synagogues participating in the Weekend of Twinning by the end of August.
• We Are All Brooklyn. Led by Rabbi Bob Kaplan of the Jewish Community Relations Council of New York and Mohammed Razvi of the Council of Peoples Organizations, We Are All Brooklyn has worked successfully since September 11, 2001, to keep the peace in Brooklyn, a potentially volatile environment where hundreds of thousands of Jews and Muslims live in close proximity.Kaplan and Razvi have worked to cool tempers in their respective communities when bias incidents occur, while encouraging ongoing coalition-building on leadership at grass roots levels.
• The Anti-Defamation League and the American Jewish Committee have developed detailed programs for combatting anti-Semitism.The Muslim Public Affairs Committee (MPAC) have developed programs for taking on Islamophobia. The MPAC program examines the effect of Islamophobia on American society as a whole and trains participants in how to engage government representatives, the media and other religious communities so as to sensitize them to the growing dangers of Islamophobia and anti-Muslim incitement.
Whatever model they choose to follow, synagogues and mosques participating in the Weekend of Twinning are encouraged to create programs in which honest and substantive discussion take place. Muslims and Jews should have the opportunity to ask each other questions they have always been curious about, but never before had the opportunity to pose. The ultimate goal of the Weekend of Twinning will be to tackle prejudices and misperceptions that exist in both communities.
We believe this encounter will illuminate for both sides how much we have in common as people loyal to our respective religious heritages who are also proud and fully participating fellow citizens of the United States and Canada. We hope that the experience of the Weekend of Twinning will leave twinned congregations committed to building an ongoing relationship and to working together on issues of mutual concern.
In the coming weeks, I will be e-mailing synagogues and mosques participating in the Weekend of Twinning of Mosques and Synagogues Across North America an ongoing stream of ideas and suggestions that will be useful in planning for the event. Should you have any questions, feel free to contact me by phone or e-mail about questions you may have. I will be in touch with each of you by phone in the coming days and weeks.
Best Wishes,
Walter Ruby
917 294-1772
walterruby@gmail.com
#192842 ben Sun Jun 15th 01:15:49 2008
walter
good luck with the conference. my feeling about these things is that everyone is so scared of offending the other guy, or more accurately, afraid of hurting the other guy's feelings that you can't get much done.
#192844 Jaron Sun Jun 15th 14:05:29 2008
Walter, Ira,
Good to see ye again on this page
#192845 ben Mon Jun 16th 10:37:52 2008
eugene
news of your college "buddy": yediot reports that sachi hanegbi is trying to come to an agreement with the prosecutor regarding a plea bargain. according to the potential agreement, most of the charges would be dropped in exchange for an admission of guilt and probation. the only point which has been agreed upon is the question of "qalon (moral turpitude). hanegbi wants it dropped and the prosecutor wants it left to the judge. if the judge decides that the crime is one of moral turpitude, then hanegbi's political career is at an end, effectively.
#192846 ben Mon Jun 16th 10:40:43 2008
small political news
yvette lieberman wants to be defense minister.
#192847 ben addendum to 845 Mon Jun 16th 11:52:55 2008
sachi himself said on the radio that he is not trying to get a plea bargain, but will continue with the trial.
#192848 ben Mon Jun 16th 12:37:53 2008
EU agrees it is ready to upgrade Israel ties (Reuters)
(will, you have your work cut out for you)
#192849 Will Europe on Hold. Mon Jun 16th 18:27:39 2008
Ben,
Thats unusual that both you and I would take optimism out of the same article, perhaps you didn't actually read it ? Here is the jist of how "ready" the EU is to upgrade ties. Pretty much in the same way that Israel is ready to upgrade ties with Hamas, once they meet the preset conditions.
The EU ministers said closer ties should be set in a context "which notably includes the resolution of the Israeli-Palestinian conflict through the implementation of the two-state solution,"
EU External Relations Commissioner Benita Ferrero-Walder said it remained to be seen how much linkage there would be between progress in the peace process and closer ties.
"Any consideration of bilateral EU-Israel relations must take into account the overall situation."
Ferrero-Waldner criticised Israel's settlement building in the occupied territories.
"The Israelis of course have a big list of wishes ... We in the European Union want to see an enhancement in the relations, but at the same time we have to reflect very carefully on things," she said.
Perhaps you have not heard Ben, but Europe has bigger problems at the moment.They are trying to figure out can they sideline Ireland from their project in order so they can go forward with their plans to slimline European Democracy. They think they are going to ratify it in 26 other states through the parliaments, then ignore Ireland and inplement that which was democratically rejected here. Thats the plan, it should sound familiar because it's what they did to the Palestinians as well, when they were ordered by the US to follow it's and Israel's example after the Hamas electoral victory. But they are going to find it much harder to bin their own democratic procedures than they did to bin the Palestinians. Europe, at this point in time, wouldnt give a dam about Israel trade if it could just implement its 6 year old pet project. When they come back to Ireland for a re-vote one of the conditions on the top of the list will be the strict enforcement of the Conditions in the EU-Israel Association Agreement in relation to Human rights recognition.