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#190700 maría etc. Mon Dec 17th 03:55:35 2007

Daniel

I am really delighted to read you back.

BTW, Maria, I don't know if you've been back, but the democracy you helped midwife in Indonesia is absolutely thriving. Before you went, you might recall, I was pessimistic about the chances for free & fair elections there. But they (and your team) have acheived & consolidated upon that astonishing result. Indonesia is the world's newest & largest democracy & even the endemic corruption there is now being seriously addressed. Sincere congratulations

The sincere congratulations only to the Indonesians, who have done an outstanding job themselves. We only were witnesses to that.

What is particularly remarkable is to recognise that the result of genuine, pluralist, moderate democratization, was acheived without bloodshed, after a brutal dictatorship,

Indonesians were obviously ready to change course, peacefully, this time. Now in retrospect, what I found remarkable in Indonesia, if I compared to the other countries where I have worked since, are a few features :

a) the state is present and effective everywhere.
b) the Indonesian civil society, pretty well organised, was genuinely present in overwhelming numbers, in all aspects of elections and the wider democratisation process, from civic education, to voter information, to domestic electoral observation.
c) deeply religious with nearly total absence of fundamentalism.

The experience in the other countries since is that often the state is not present everywhere, nor is it effective in the whole territory.

In the case of civil society, either it is not present, or if slightly present, it is ineffective, or you find an embryo of organisations that need several more years to be part of the process.

maría

#190701 maría etc. Mon Dec 17th 04:05:01 2007

Daniel, item more

About the state being present and effective in the whole territory as a further guarantee for the relative success of a democratisation process, one negative example was Lebanon, with the Hizballah militia active in the South, while the state was not sovereign there.

Similar absence of the state, for different reasons and different results, is Afghanistan, in the provinces where the Taliban are prevalent.

As you mention going to Yemen now, for me it has been the hardest and least rewarding working experience, in spite of the relative mechanical success of the elections. Never before did I go into any country with such a great interest and good pre-disposition and never before did I want to run away as fast. For the first time ever, I could not see the end of the expedition. I had not realised beforehand how difficult it is to work in a place where the re-islamisation has come under the Saudi-Wahabi model and how nearly impossible it is to work unde those conditions, in a place where women are bundles of black cloth, without exception, and where most are fully drugged by qat since noon on, every single day.

Still an extremely beautiful country, with the best architecture in any Arab country.

Wish you luck there

maría

#190702 maría etc. Mon Dec 17th 04:37:02 2007

Daniel, and now about Iraq

What's most remarkable is to compare that with the vastly more expensive, deadly & ineffective attempt to do the same thing, at exactly the same time, in the significantly less populous Iraq.

Iraq is very much the exception to all the rules of democratisation processes. The "deadly" part of the attempt doesn't belong to the democratisation process, but to the war, pure and simple. Wars are not the ideal landscape to have a functioning and really sucessful democratisation process. Those processes need a basic level of surrounding normality that unfortunately is lacking in Iraq.

Once the security landscape taken into consideration as a constant and permanent added difficulty, I came out of my two electoral expeditions in Iraq, for elections in 2005 and 2006, ABSOLUTELY PERSUADED that Iraqis wanted and want democracy. I have not a single doubt in that respect.

Iraqis faced many more threats and many more dangers than anyone else I have seen, just for participating in any manner whatsoever in the voting... and they still went out in the millions, walking miles by foot often, as land transportation was totally suspended on election day to avoid car bombs.

It would be too long to express here all the improvements I saw, in the democratisation process, in the 9 months that I was absent from Iraq between the two elections, but just to give you one detail, the voting evolution was extraordinary : if you remember the Anbar province (the big nearly empty one bordering Jordan), 2% of the registered voters did vote in 2005 because of the insurgents' threats, and 85% voted in 2006, in spite of all the difficulties.

Grassroots, internal, mass movement desire for democracy seems to be a crucial prerequisite for its actual success.

That one is crucial together with a few others. The desire for democracy and the first steps into putting the process in place NEVER come as a popular demand; that happens later. The elites dedide to bring in the democratisation processes, and then, the popular voice and popular wanting do follow. If the elites in question, in all levels and during all steps, are honest about it and play by ALL the democratic rules of the game, if they have some serious, wide political vision, it will work eventually, independently of the popular claim for it. The people will follow, will get informed, intellectually and emotionally attached at the same time to the process, and claim it as their own, but will not generate it.

I would say that Iraqis overwhelmingly want democracy; that precondition is surely in place... but most of the other conditions are absent.

Still, I believe that it could work in Iraq.

maría

#190703 maría etc. Mon Dec 17th 04:55:36 2007

Jacob

cc Joe

How can you hope to set up a democracy in a place in the midst of some of the most reactionary, god-awful regimes on earth?

Just for the memory, Eastern Europe had some of the most god-awful regimes, and one after the other, all fell into the democratic camp. I don't see Arabs at all more stupid than Eastern Europeans; with the right conditions they could democratise too.

And how could you not have given the military enough man-and-fire power to take that country firmly under control from the very beginning,

That was always my question. Without any military information whatsoever, I still know that it took 56,000 troops to keep Kosovo quiet after the invasion, and Kosovo is 1/50 of Iraq. I never thought they'd make it in Iraq with the 130,000 troops more or less that they sent to Iraq to enforce the peace. With 130,000 you keep the peace (when peace already exists), but do not enforce the peace when not in place (case of Iraq).

I think Bush and teams were simply extremely, extremely stupid.

And why create a government there friendly to … Iran? What is it, a joke of some sort? What have the sacrifices been for? For the wellbeing of the abominable mullahs?

That's what you get when you vote for a complete idiot.

maría

#190704 maría etc. Mon Dec 17th 04:57:12 2007

Joe

Jacob, has it ever occurred to that creating a democracy (Iraq) sandwiched in- between Syria and Iran is probably the best way to "confront the Iran - Syria axis"?

Don't make me laugh!

maría

#190705 ben Mon Dec 17th 09:03:51 2007

maria

re 701

so how do you see the prospects of a decent election in pakistan? that place has all of the elements that you listed to ensure democracy doesn't take root.

#190706 maría etc. Mon Dec 17th 10:46:17 2007

Ben, re Pakistan

so how do you see the prospects of a decent election in pakistan? that place has all of the elements that you listed to ensure democracy doesn't take root.

I don't know, really. A few good points would be : an active and involved civil society, a proper judiciary and a constant wish not to do worse/to do better than India. For the rest, I'll have to see first. Megacorruption at all levels is a huge handicap and so is the absence of the state (if that's the case) in tribal areas.

maría

#190707 Joe Mon Dec 17th 15:28:32 2007

But, seriously, my candidate is Rudy. He is a nasty guy, but if properly channeled his nastiness should turn against our external enemies, and that’s what we need today.

Yakov,

You scared me with the Kucinich thing. I would have wasted megabytes on this poor forum if you were telling the truth. Rudy is much better. And ANY republican is much better than Billary.

Maria stated the usual forum "theme":

cc: Yacov

That's what you get when you vote for a complete idiot.

And you'd still have Saddam in power if Gore or Kerry were elected president. Sometimes it takes an idiot to effect positive change. Just look at today's college campuses. I rest my case.

Maria, you love to talk about democracy, but you have absolutely no idea on how to achieved it. Perhaps you could take a lesson or two from an idiot president.

On the "what if" issue about Iraq, I am no military expert, and it would seem that more troops could certainly have helped. OTOH, more troops could also have meant more targets and more American deaths. I think think the issue isn't the number of troops, but the new type of warfare. It took the US a number of years to understand how to deal with a hidden enemy.

The IDF is also learning how to deal with this new type of enemy. And their initial experience hasn't been any better than America's. So I don't think the number of soldiers is necessarily the best fix. You have to know how to kill a hidden enemy that is highly motivated and has no problem giving up his life to become a "holy martyr".

#190708 ben Mon Dec 17th 15:33:15 2007

joe

cc maria

the idf experience in the west bank was that until there was a partial call up and soldiers were sent into the cities and camps (operation defensive shield), the terror didn't stop.

one of the critical mistakes made in lebanon was that we thought that we could win the war cheaply, without the neccessary manpower.

#190709 Joe Mon Dec 17th 16:05:57 2007

But, seriously, my candidate is Rudy. He is a nasty guy, but if properly channeled his nastiness should turn against our external enemies, and that’s what we need today.

Yakov,

You scared me with the Kucinich thing. I would have wasted megabytes on this poor forum if you were telling the truth. Rudy is much better. And ANY republican is much better than Billary.

Maria stated the usual forum "theme":

cc: Yacov

That's what you get when you vote for a complete idiot.

And you'd still have Saddam in power if Gore or Kerry were elected president. Sometimes it takes an idiot to effect positive change. Just look at today's college campuses. I rest my case.

Maria, you love to talk about democracy, but you have absolutely no idea on how to achieved it. Perhaps you could take a lesson or two from an idiot president.

#190712 Joe Prowd 2B illiterat Mon Dec 17th 17:13:14 2007

Maria - eVur wondure what iD due with A brain? if i Had won!

//video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-3516099753399606893&q=if+i+only+had+a+brain&total=724&start=0&num=10&so=0&type=search&plindex=2

#190714 eugene tatzileny mi'azey panim Mon Dec 17th 17:22:45 2007

one of the critical mistakes made in lebanon was that we thought that we could win the war cheaply, without the neccessary manpower.

another mistake was that the pm, the dm and the ramatkal thought that winning the war was a given and made arrogant and bellicose statements at the beginning of the war.

similarly for iraq, do you remember bush's "bring it on" and "mission accomplished"?

#190716 Ioram Shahar Mon Dec 17th 18:29:28 2007

Eugene
How do you presently perceive the race to the presidency of the USofA?

#190717 maría etc. Mon Dec 17th 18:59:04 2007

Joe

(maría) That's what you get when you vote for a complete idiot.

(maría) And you'd still have Saddam in power if Gore or Kerry were elected president.

No idea, I leave speculations aside. Gore seems stupid enough to me, mind you. No ide about Kerry.

Sometimes it takes an idiot to effect positive change. Just look at today's college campuses. I rest my case.

Your case has been "resting in peace" since you started; pretty dead and no case at all.

Maria, you love to talk about democracy,

No, I don't love to talk about it. I just work in implementing the thing, but talk about it, not much. In this case I answered Daniel. I did not bring the subject in.

but you have absolutely no idea on how to achieved it.

You can bet your gonads that I DO have much more than an idea on how to achieve it.

Perhaps you could take a lesson or two from an idiot president.

With all humility, your half elected tembel could have taken more than a valuable lesson regarding democracy from yours truly. We each have our field of expertise and demo within HR, is mine, not his.

maría

#190718 Ioram Shahar Mon Dec 17th 19:01:22 2007

Other than that, Israeli scientists imprint memory on neurons.
www.sciam.com/article.cfm?articleID=0306422B-E7F2-99DF-3809798634B2D416&sc=I100322

“Researchers at Tel Aviv University in Israel have demonstrated that neurons cultured outside the brain can be imprinted with multiple rudimentary memories that persist for days without interfering with or wiping out others.”

#190719 eugene Mon Dec 17th 19:03:10 2007

How do you presently perceive the race to the presidency of the USofA?

ioram,
i'd take any of the current candidates over what we have now.
whoever gets elected, it's going to take a long time to fix the messes bush created internationally and domestically.

#190720 maría etc. Mon Dec 17th 19:04:20 2007

Joe, some more

On the "what if" issue about Iraq, I am no military expert, and it would seem that more troops could certainly have helped.

That's the whole story. Hadn't your tembel wanted to do it on th cheap side, it would have been certainly cheaper and faster.

OTOH, more troops could also have meant more targets and more American deaths.

With your logic you should have sent 100 guys to WWII; you would have saved lives. Utter nonsense.

I think think the issue isn't the number of troops, but the new type of warfare. It took the US a number of years to understand how to deal with a hidden enemy.

More shtuyot. That warfare, the irregular type, has been around since Napoleon invaded Spain, 200 years ago; your country should have got used to it, especially as it is now the more frequent one, on one side irregulars and on the other side a conventional army.

maría

#190721 eugene Mon Dec 17th 19:21:45 2007

It took the US a number of years to understand how to deal with a hidden enemy.

May 2003:

http://thinkprogress.org/wp-images/upload/thumb-Accomplished.jpg

#190722 Joe Fixing Messes: The True Story Mon Dec 17th 19:47:32 2007

whoever gets elected, it's going to take a long time to fix the messes bush created internationally and domestically.

Ioram -

cc: Eugene

These are the "messes bush created":

1.) Saddam and the Baathists

2.) Ahmadinejad's funding and arming of Hezbollah, Hamas and Syria

3.) Al-Queda and their bombing of Madrid's train station, the London tube and busses, and the NY's WTCs.

4.) Hurricane Katrina

5.) A democrat party that only wants or "likes" defeat

6.) Hillary Clinton's change of heart about Iraqi regime change that she once held "with conviction"

Responding to self-proclaimed "military experts":

With your logic you should have sent 100 guys to WWII; you would have saved lives. Utter nonsense.

Sorry Maria. The US defeated the Iraqi government in 3 weeks.

As far as WW2 is converned, Germany did not have a jihadist insurgency whereby innocent Germans and other Europeans were targeted by pro-Nazis using roadside bombs and IEDs in order to extricate the allies from Europe.

Anyway, the surge has worked and all the tembel haters really don't know where to turn next. It's a difficult situation.

#190723 eugene Mon Dec 17th 20:59:01 2007

Anyway, the surge has worked and all the tembel haters really don't know where to turn next. It's a difficult situation.

the difficult situation is that it took your rebbe 4 years to get his head out of his cheney to acknowledge there was an insurgency, that the mission was not accomplished and that more troops were needed.
in the meantime thousands of people were killed and wounded and iraq has become the basket case it is now.

#190726 Joe Lies, lies, lies Mon Dec 17th 23:44:55 2007

For the benefit of the forum, free of charge:

[www.jewishpolicycenter.org/article/83

#190727 Jacob Tue Dec 18th 01:00:14 2007

Just for the memory, Eastern Europe had some of the most god-awful regimes, and one after the other, all fell into the democratic camp.

maría
I know you don’t fancy analogies, but I will still try to give you one. When your lawn is large and healthy but has a few small bare patches here and there, you know that come next spring, the lawn will heal itself, and the patches will all be green.
But if what you have is a big area of mud in the middle of which there is a lonely green spot, you can’t expect that this spot is going to survive for long in such surroundings. It is possible to keep it going, but you will need constant attention with a lot of water, fertilizers and herbicides.
So when the winter of Cold War was over, it did not take very long for the countries of Eastern Europe (and most of Eastern Europe used to be called the Mitteleuropa – Central Europe) to align themselves with the rest of Europe. And who are going the Iraqis align themselves with? Whichever way the look all they see one regime more awful than the other: Iran, SA, Syria, Jordan. And none of them is interested in an Iraqi democracy, as it would discredit their own regimes.
I don't see Arabs at all more stupid than Eastern Europeans; with the right conditions they could democratise too.
What are those right conditions? Personally I don’t want to sacrifice American lives for the grand democratic experiment in Mesopotamia and as a taxpayer don’t want to finance it. Are the Russians, by the way, any more stupid than the Poles are? Nevertheless, the tender democratic tree refuses to grow in Russia. Why is that? What do you, as the democratization officer, think about the recent Russian election by the way? How would you classify them?
With 130,000 you keep the peace (when peace already exists), but do not enforce the peace when not in place (case of Iraq).
I think Bush and teams were simply extremely, extremely stupid.
Bush and Rumsfeld had a new military doctrine to try: a modern military force, small in size but very mobile and cheap to replace the old clumsy expensive armies of old. Well, the toy did not work very well.

#190731 Will Human rights are a reality, not a Project. Tue Dec 18th 04:20:06 2007

In the same way as a petrol attendant is the dispenser of petrol to the common people at a gas station, election officials are the distributors of votes at an election hub.
Bubba doesnt have a clue where Petrol comes from and the reality of how it generates civility is irrelevant to him. Election attendants, though they do provide a good electoral buzz, are similarly irrelevant on the democratic landscape.

Will the provision of democracy require us to tolerate a complete intermediary industry of attendants and executives?

Right now , the answer looks like ..No. The people can get it for themselves. Be brave Lebanon. Stand tall Palestine. Shut up Europe and the US.

#190732 eugene Tue Dec 18th 04:41:39 2007

LOL!
welcome back, will, i missed your humorous posts.

#190733 Joe The War w/o Cost Debate Tue Dec 18th 04:54:29 2007

Jacob said:

Personally I don’t want to sacrifice American lives for the grand democratic experiment in Mesopotamia and as a taxpayer don’t want to finance it.

Jacob,

Yet, you said the most important foreign policy action you want from the US government is to "confront the Iran - Syria axis"?

Seems to me you want your cake and eat it HaBB.

You're not going to "confront the Iran - Syria axis" without lots of money and American lives. That's just the truth.

#190734 maría etc. Tue Dec 18th 10:45:34 2007

Jacob

I know you don’t fancy analogies, but I will still try to give you one.

Is not that I don't like them, it is that they don't work See:

When your lawn is large and healthy but has a few small bare patches here and there, you know that come next spring, the lawn will heal itself, and the patches will all be green.

I don't have a lawn, I don't know how they work, they are totally unecological in most of my country which is in process of desertification, where we have droughts of 8 years followed by one year of floods and where temperatures oscillations within a year can be 70ºC (by my house, 13 km north of Madrid).

maría

#190735 maría etc. Tue Dec 18th 11:07:05 2007

Jacob, now without the lawn

So when the winter of Cold War was over, it did not take very long for the countries of Eastern Europe (and most of Eastern Europe used to be called the Mitteleuropa – Central Europe) to align themselves with the rest of Europe

It did not take very long (17 years for some) for one serious reason too, apart from geographic contagion : the expectation and reward to enter the EU. Had the EU not been in place and the money and prestige that went with it, we'd be still waiting for some democratisation processes to take hold. Without entering speculations of "how if", there is a "map of democratic improvement" that quite corresponds with the borders of the enlarged EU, and not exactly with the natural borders of Europe, which are larger of course end include much more problematic democratisation processes.

And who are going the Iraqis align themselves with?

Jacob, the Iraqis can align themselves with democracies and that's it; the models are there for countries to take the universal basis and rules, included in the HR declarations that all have signed and to accomodate them to local peculiarities. With whom did the European countries align themselves with over the centuries, to become reasonable democracies? All with England who started first? How many centuries did it take? How many centuries it took the now developed democracies to include half the voting force, women? All of that was done yesterday, in historical terms. If the European lot, quite brutish and savage until very recently, was amenable to it, why not others?

What about Spanish and Portuguese speaking America? who did they align themselves with when they were ALL dictatorships by the end of the 70s? They started democratisation processes in the 80s (with varying success and enough hiccups) They got contagion from whom? how many chances did the first have when the others were dictatorships?

maría

#190736 maría etc. Tue Dec 18th 11:15:49 2007

Jacob, item more

Whichever way the look all they see one regime more awful than the other: Iran, SA, Syria, Jordan.

I don't agree with you there. Iran might be right now a matter of concern for your country of adoption and others because of the nuclear stuff, but as far as their democratisation process is concerned, they fare much better than Syria and Saudia. Jordan and Iran are seriously improving their democratisation processes, with some good step forwards and some backwards, but not too bad, and of course not comparable to the other two, Syria and Saudia, who really are awful.

maría

#190737 Will One vote , one laugh. Tue Dec 18th 11:30:42 2007

I dont know whats wrong with you Eugene, you have this three way exchange of utter Blarney between Maria , Jacob and Joe yet you cant get a laugh until I come along...your life is passing you by , mate.

#190738 maría etc. Tue Dec 18th 11:34:45 2007

Jacob, and more

And none of them is interested in an Iraqi democracy, as it would discredit their own regimes.

Jacob, Iraq has so many problems of its own that the interest of its neighbours in Iraq's democratic process is frankly nothing to write home about in the priorities list. Iraq has enough ethnic, religious and economic cleavages to make it explode by the seams (Yugoslavia style), without considering the "prestige" of the two awful regimes, Syria and Saudia.

I used to think, before the invasion of 2003, that Iraq's "solution" would come by way of a federation of the three chunks, Kurdistan, Sunnistan and Shi'astan, as long as the petrol resources (in Kurdistan and Shi'astan) were shared in a way that the Sunnis (who have been in charge since Iraq was set up and whose territory has no oil) didn' feel left out. I have never understood the stubborness to keep in place the uinitarian political model for a country with so many unbridgeable (for the time being) cleavages. Now, frankly, I don't know what to think, we'll see.

maría

#190739 maría etc. Tue Dec 18th 11:47:49 2007

Jacob, to end, democratisation vs USA's interests

I don't see Arabs at all more stupid than Eastern Europeans; with the right conditions they could democratise too

Arabs have been less lucky, politically speaking, than Europeans lately and have had far worse political elites, that's all.

What are those right conditions? Personally I don’t want to sacrifice American lives for the grand democratic experiment in Mesopotamia and as a taxpayer don’t want to finance it.

Here we enter the field of not calling things by their name. Your country of adoption is NOT in Iraq to democratise it. The democratisation process is a by-product of whatever Bush wanted to do there, but not the reason for intervening in Iraq. It would be healthier for the thinking, and a lot clearer, not to speak of the "cost of the grand democratic experiment in Mesopotamia", when what you are speaking really really about is of the cost of the "whatever Bush wanted to do in Iraq" and which has badly backfired for the Americans, costing far more $$$ and far more thousands of lives than forecasted.

All the above IS NOT about "cemocratising Mesopotamia". It is rather about intervening abroad and losing or at least not making it.

maría

#190740 maría etc. Tue Dec 18th 12:09:16 2007

Jacob, Russia

Are the Russians, by the way, any more stupid than the Poles are? Nevertheless, the tender democratic tree refuses to grow in Russia. Why is that?

You see? the democratic lawn contagion on the Western flank is not working for Russia . No idea Jacob; it could be the historical constant in Russia (autocracy or balagan) weighing still heavily, the nostaliga for imperial recent times and the non-complete digestion of its empire's dissolution, and of course the fact that it will not enter the EU , which has been the great democratisation incentive for the Western ex-satellites of the ex USSR.

What do you, as the democratization officer, think about the recent Russian election by the way? How would you classify them?

I don't know for sure; it is not my area of speciality; I am into Muslim countries almost exclusively. I would qualify it as "bad" to start, but normally I form more informed opinion after I get news and assessment from colleagues who are specialised in Eastern Europe and ex-USSR countries. This time it couldn't be because they did not go to cover elections in Russia. Why didn't they go? because after the whole expedition was ready, with the bags packed, Russia did NOT give them visas.

We were many of us undergoing training for Pakistan last month and there were a few who were meant to go to Russia immediately, who should have got their visas while in the Pakistani training and who kept waiting, and waiting... and it didn't come.

maría

#190742 maría etc. Tue Dec 18th 12:29:37 2007

Jacob, on peace enforcing vs peace keeping

(maría) With 130,000 you keep the peace (when peace already exists), but do not enforce the peace when not in place (case of Iraq).

I think Bush and teams were simply extremely, extremely stupid.

(Jacob) Bush and Rumsfeld had a new military doctrine to try: a modern military force, small in size but very mobile and cheap to replace the old clumsy expensive armies of old. Well, the toy did not work very well.

I don't agree. That doctrine had been put into practice recently before by the previous president, Clinton. In the Balkans they bombed from the air first, and when that war was won, enough ground troops entered the place to enforce the peace, 56,000 in Kosovo as I reminded before

The only new "experiment" that those retards put into place was to win the air war and then not to put enough ground troops to enforce the peace, while at the same time dissolving local army and police without replacing them with foreign forces

Criminally irresponsible bastards.

maría

#190743 maría etc. Tue Dec 18th 15:38:11 2007

pearl by Joe

(Joe)OTOH, more troops could also have meant more targets and more American deaths

(maría) With your logic you should have sent 100 guys to WWII; you would have saved lives. Utter nonsense.

And now some more :

No shit! Germany's whatever was sooooooooo mild that it made millions of victims, unlike the jihadist with all their bombs.

What a mass of nonsense, what a see of shtuyot.

Anyway, the surge has worked and all the tembel haters really don't know where to turn next. It's a difficult situation

I don't hate your tembel... and for the difficult situation, your tembel and you are in a difficult situation, I am not.

And for a previous pearl of yours :

I think think the issue isn't the number of troops, but the new type of warfare. It took the US a number of years to understand how to deal with a hidden enemy.

Over 200 years?

maría

#190744 maría etc. Tue Dec 18th 15:41:11 2007

Ioram habibi, I got your mail, did you receive my answer? I don't trust much my terra.es account; it misbehaves often.

Anyway, if we end up in Pakistan (still not sure) I will bring you rupees. I have kept quite a bit of change from previous countries where I worked. You can have Iraqi (Saddam's), Syria, Yemen and Afghanistan bills.

Khibukim.

maría

#190745 eugene Tue Dec 18th 16:34:51 2007

speaking of stupidity:
"Gunmen fired in the air, accidentally severing a high-voltage power line, which fell on the crowd of mourners, killing one person and injuring at least seven others."

http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/935475.html

#190748 Ioram Shahar Tue Dec 18th 17:52:46 2007

María habibti
I haven't yet received your answer, but I keep watching for it.
I see you posted the “pearl” picture, can the other pictures (“fainted”, “cat”) be posted too?
7ibukim

#190750 maría etc. Tue Dec 18th 18:35:03 2007

Ioram habibi qalbi

I wrote to you, answering your email, on Dec 15th, 23h09'. This terra.es server is a bastard sometimes. I guess you won't get it. The email server has incompatibilities with some other servers, but not all the time that I know of, and the thing is totally impredictable.

Anyway, I will keep the bills-coins for you

perhaps you can write to me, to the same name @hotmail.com and let's see if we can communicate from there.

More khibukim.

maría

#190751 maría etc. Tue Dec 18th 18:39:05 2007

Ioram habibi

Here go some icons that remain actualim, sort of

eugenio (this one is for the microbist )
diablilla the she jinn that used to break the forum down
faint that one you know
hello Ben !!
sajim faints