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#191454 Wael Tue Jan 22nd 18:35:44 2008
Israel allowed limited quantities of fuel to the "now unoccupied with no Jewish population" Gaza 
. The international Red Cross called Tuesday for Israel to lift the blockade on the " "now unoccupied with no Jewish population" Gaza to prevent a complete collapse of health and sanitary services. Meanwhile in his first comment since the imposed blockade of the " "now unoccupied with no Jewish population" Gaza Abbas says that halting contacts with the Israelis is useless. On the contrary , Abbas says, we should "intensify our contacts and our meetings to stop the suffering of our people." The more Israel bombs and kills, the more talks are "intensified" and maybe by the end of this year we'll reach a deal
#191455 eugene Tue Jan 22nd 18:44:02 2008
#191456 Jaron Tue Jan 22nd 18:59:52 2008
Wael,
Both Israel and Gaza should be using solar fired power plants, IMO. As for what the PA/Hamas can do to make things easier, it is really very simple....stop firing rockets at southern Israel. Not complex at all. You are talking about Jews here. We give concessions to the Palestinians even while they try to kill us at the same time. Imagine how much they could get if they if they gave peace a chance.
#191457 Joe Wael's Woes Tue Jan 22nd 19:09:37 2008
We give concessions to the Palestinians even while they try to kill us at the same time.
Jaron,
Jews are a strange people if you ask me. No other country would tolerate this.
#191458 ben Tue Jan 22nd 19:16:01 2008
things can't be too bad for the jews. it is snowing in the hermon and maybe it will open up for skiing.
#191461 Will Tue Jan 22nd 23:31:43 2008
You are talking about Jews here.
Actually Its the Israelis with the criminal blockade.
Jews are a strange people if you ask me.
Not half as strange as the Israelis.
things can't be too bad for the jews.
Im sure its a mixed bag for the Jews but politically, the Israelis never had it so good.
But now It's Israeli deeds that are being discussed at the UN Security Council not the Jews. I wonder will the US paymaster deem Israel to have taken a step too far in cutting off Humanitarian aid? Will they smack lil Bubbas wrist?
#191462 Wael Tue Jan 22nd 23:37:07 2008
"Concessions concessions concessions"...... "we give concessions while they kill us"...."Jews are a strange people....no other country would tolerate this"...bla bla bla of Pure, unadulterated sophistry .Palestinians are "negotiating" over 22% of their historical homeland while the other side talks about "concessions". 22 f*ing percent, 17 years of "talks" of the kind Abbas want to "intensify" when not a day passes before the 22% "dreams" becomes farther. Concessions ?! strange people indeed.
#191463 Will Jaron Wed Jan 23rd 04:01:34 2008
Firing rockets from Gaza to Sderot is also in violation of UN resolutions and Humanitarian law.
That depends on who's doing it.
#191464 ben Wed Jan 23rd 07:16:34 2008
That depends on who's doing it.
i don't know who is the "who" that you are referring to will, but the above sentence is a perfect illustration of the difference between yourself and human rights organizations like AI. for the latter, firing into civilian areas is firing into civilian areas.
#191466 Jaron Wed Jan 23rd 08:25:19 2008
Wael,
RE 191462
Might I remind you that until very recently the Palestinians were willing to allow a Jewish state to exist on exactly 0% of historic Israel/Palestine. If the tables were reversed tomorrow, all of Israel would have the thriving Jewish population of Gaza now, much less an Israeli state. So, yes, I think it does say something about the generosity, gullibility or both the Jews that they are seeking establishment of Palestinian state, when the Palsestinians would certainly never voluntarily allow the creation or survival of a Jewish one.
For that, yes, we are strange.
For what it is worth, the day that the state of Palestine has a thriving Jewish community under Arab rule (somewhat on par with Israeli Arabs today in Israel), I will happily revise my current position.
#191467 Will Wed Jan 23rd 11:54:19 2008
Ben,
If some guy goes into a town and cold shoots three or four people in a supermarket, is that a violation of the Geneva Convention ?
If some guy in a bar walks over and stabs another guy, do we invoke International Law?
If you are saying there is a differnece between Amnesty international's principles and mine then you are right. I'll always do my best to call a spade, a spade. Amnesty and for that matter HRW check the flag first in case they upset the wrong side. These groups have made themselves irrelevant in this conflict. Just like the UN.
#191468 ben Wed Jan 23rd 12:09:59 2008
will
If some guy goes into a town . .
that isn't what is happening in sderot.
If you are saying there is a differnece between Amnesty international's principles and mine then you are right.
well we agree on something. AI believes in human rights and you believe in something else.
These groups have made themselves irrelevant in this conflict. Just like the UN.
as opposed to you?
#191470 amnesty@international.com Wed Jan 23rd 15:50:25 2008
dear will,
yes, we always check the flag first and are biased and irrelevant.
In the future we shall strive to make ourself fair and relevant by following your lead on issues of Human Rights.
Thank you for pointing out the true way.
Yours truly,
A. International
#191471 ben Wed Jan 23rd 17:48:20 2008
some commentators are stating that what happened on the border of gaza is a major step in pushing gaza back into egypt's hands. maybe sharon was a lot smarter than people think.
#191472 Jaron Wed Jan 23rd 17:49:46 2008
Will,
Firing rockets at Sderot isn't a domestic criminal law barfight. It is an elected Hamas government firing rockets across a border at another state at a civilian target. If the IDF launched rockets randomly at Gazan civilian targets I am pretty sure what you would call it.
#191473 Will Wed Jan 23rd 18:02:13 2008
Sure thing Ben, The Gazans are just dying to be Egyptians and the Egyptians are just dying to get Hamas into their Bosom to reunite them with their Muslim Brothers.
More likely that Egypt opening it's borders is the start of a realisation that Israel , as a geopolitical problem, will have to be circumnavagated by the Arabs in any way possible. And that they have the support of all decent-minded folk in doing that.
Its logical.
#191475 eugene it's logical Wed Jan 23rd 18:15:10 2008
Israel , as a geopolitical problem, will have to be circumnavagated by the Arabs in any way possible.
serves you right, israel! no more business and tourism from the arab countries for you!
#191476 Will Wed Jan 23rd 18:24:52 2008
Jaron,
Israel do launch rockets all over the place in Gaza. 37 dead in 4 days last week . Familys in cars , women , children, Wedding parties blasted with scores maimed. There is only one thiong to call it , mass murder. You are living in a fantasy.
Now you want it every way on Hamas. They are a terrorist entity when it suits , half of them in prison . Government bypassed as illegitimate, and a preferable, had picked cabal set up in its place to agree some twisted treachery against the people with the Israeli government.
But all of a sudden they are a legitimate government who should heed international law when you want to rocket the citizens of Gaza in collective punishment. You are all over the place , Jaron. It's not your fault though, you are just spouting the standard rubbish from that side.
And Jaron, how do you know "the Hamas government " are launching the rockets?
#191477 Wael Wed Jan 23rd 18:30:54 2008
Jaron,
It might come as a surprise for you but Palestinians were not keeping Palestine in trust for you guys to "return" from what you call your "2000 years exile". Palestinians were in no obligation to honor your religious myth and "voluntarily" stand by while mass immigration from another continent is destroying their society. That said, when Palestinians agree to settle with 22% only of their historical homeland, your talk about "Jewish generosity", "concessions", and "reversed tables" is - to say the least - plain sophistry .
#191478 ben Wed Jan 23rd 18:52:34 2008
The Gazans are just dying to be
gazans are dying, that is true.
their point was this coming together of gaza and egypt may be an unintended consequence of the pullout. if the goi is smart (which i am NOT claiming) they would do everything they could to encourage this development.
who knows. at this point it is all talk, talk, talk, which middle eastern types love to do.
#191479 ben Wed Jan 23rd 19:07:24 2008
Israel , as a geopolitical problem, will have to be circumnavagated by the Arabs in any way possible.
yeah well prince what's his name from SA sent us a personal invitation to join the arab world. so there.
#191482 Jaron Wed Jan 23rd 19:28:31 2008
Will,
I see, so when the rockets go one direction it is a war crime and violation of international humanitarian law. But when the rockets go the other way it is legitimate resistance to occupation. Thanks for the clarification. I understand now. Palestinian actions are blameless, while Israeli actions must be viewed in the worst possible light. Will, that is the perspective of a one sided advocate using human rights as a tool. There is nothing wrong with being an apologist for Palestinian nationalism. You are in great company among the western left by doing so. But, you cannot then claim some universal human rights position.
Wael,
The roots don't really matter for current resolution, but I would point out that Palestinian national identity as it exists today (someone saying "I am of the Palestinian people in the same way a Pole is Polish") is less than 150 years old and actually congealed along with modern Zionism. You have two ethnic nationalisms with a claim to the same homeland. Those two ethnic nationalisms are quite different in character. Most current streams of Zionism allows for the other to be legitimate. Palestinian nationalism may have to cut a deal with Zionism only if it can't kill the Jews off by main force, but it certainly doesn't accept Zionism as legitimate. Palestinian nationalism opposes any Jewish immigration, while it expects Israel to allow millions of Palestinians born abroad to immigrate, not to a state of Palestine, but to Israel, as if this was perfectly natural that a state should voluntarily commit suicide. That is the basic difference between the two nationalisms. Your 191477 only underscores my point.
That is what I mean by the bizarre nature of my people. If we adopted the Palestinian approach to the "other" I think you know what the results would be.
#191483 Will Wed Jan 23rd 19:42:38 2008
Ben,
It never ceases to amaze me that in the middle of your self deluding malaise you still occasionally manage to get some thing right.
That : These Human rights groups have made themselves irrelevant in this conflict. "As opposed to me" is absolutely correct Ben, Well done!
I am part of Western public opinion. Like it or not it is Western public opinion that is most likely to bring Israel's apartheid house of cards tumbling down. The US is full out in its efforts to demonise Arabs and Muslims as terrorists and savages and thats why they can have limited effect on their own behalf for the time being.
But not in Europe and in more enlightened US circles, the whole Palestine scandal is starting to really come under a magnifying glass.You can call us pinko lefties, but you would be more accurate calling your friends in HRW and AI pinko lefties. They are too "right on" to call Israel's terrorism for what it is.
This was starkly highlighted by a recent report by Arab Association for Human Rights - "Civilians in Danger" which showed that Israel was using it's citizens as Human Shields during the Lebanon Bombardment. Your favoured Human rights associations completely balked in reporting this, proving that they are totally untrustworthy and hence, irrelevant. Unlike me. But I have in fact another ace up my sleeve. I , as a citizen of Ireland, am one of the only people in the world who can now stop the EU Constitution being ratified throught the back door of the Lisbon Treaty. You see, Benjamin, I get to vote against it and hold the whole of the EU over a barrel, in their mindless quest for homogenisation.
When it is defeated and the sons of Bitches come crawlin for a compromise, my say will be very relevant. Unlike yours.
#191484 eugene Wed Jan 23rd 19:45:47 2008
it's a race btw will and moshiach tzidkenu.
who will win?
stay tuned.
#191486 eugene Wed Jan 23rd 20:02:48 2008
This was starkly highlighted by a recent report by Arab Association for Human Rights
oh i think we know now where to find the standards for universal human rights: they are set by the Arab Association for Human Rights.
take a look at their site: http://www.arabhra.org
seemingly the only Arab human rights problems are related to israel.
LOL!
#191487 Will Wed Jan 23rd 20:05:17 2008
Jaron,
I am on record here as saying that I think Palestinians should desist from firing rockets into Israel. I dont support it. But you can keep making up words for me and pretending I said them.
You have to prove that those firing the rockets are bound by international law before you go invoking the laws against them. Seeing as you give so much support to negating Hamas legitimacy in governing Palestinians, then claim it is Hamas firing the rockets, I dont see this as option for you.
However Israel is bound by the laws and in particular the Fourth Geneva convention regaring Occupation and has a responsibility to the occupied people of Palestine not to punish them for the actions of militants. They killed 37 people in four days last week and maimed 40 people at a wedding party. You dont seem to care at all. Jaron, that is the perspective of a one sided advocate using militant actions as a tool of oppression aagainst an occupied people. There is nothing wrong with being an apologist for Israeli state terrorism. You are in great company among the western "zionist" clique by doing so. But, you cannot then claim some reciprocal human rights position.
#191488 ben Wed Jan 23rd 20:10:00 2008
it's a race btw will and moshiach tzidkenu
i'm not worried. there is an email going around listing lots of natural disasters that happened to american whenever bush or clinton pressured israel to give up land or helped arafat or stuff like that.
if the irish dare to do anything against israel, well they've been warned.
#191489 Wael Wed Jan 23rd 20:11:07 2008
Jaron,
What difference does it make what Palestinians were calling themselves 100, 125, or 200 years ago ? How would this affect in any shape or form their reaction to massive Jewish European immigration flooding their homeland ?
#191490 Will Its not funny. Wed Jan 23rd 20:16:03 2008
Laugh it up Eugene,
I bet you have a good old chuckle everytime you ponder the fact that the African-American Civil Rights Movement was only dealing with the racism and violence against black people happening in America.
Tell us Eugene , what else do you find funny?
#191491 Wael Wed Jan 23rd 20:18:44 2008
Jaron,
You have two ethnic nationalisms with a claim to the same homeland.
Unless Palestinians (or whatever you call them, whatever they called themselves, etc...) were holding Palestine in trust for the big "Jewish return from the 2000 years exile" , I don't understand what claim you're talking about. But lets say for the sake of the argument that I accept your statement above, what concessions Israeli Jews are offering to the Palestinians ? That Jewish immigration be limited to 78% of "their common homeland" ? What concessions the Palestinians are making by accepting to negotiate on 22% only of their homeland ?
#191492 eugene Wed Jan 23rd 20:37:06 2008
I bet you have a good old chuckle everytime you ponder the fact that the African-American Civil Rights Movement was only dealing with the racism and violence against black people happening in America.
tell me will, where else in the world do african-americans live beside the usa?
now tell me also, where else in the world do arabs live beside israel and West Bank and Gaza?
#191493 Wael Wed Jan 23rd 20:39:13 2008
Jaron,
Most current streams of Zionism allows for the other to be legitimate.
Toz.
It doesn't mean a thing on the ground and It doesn't make any difference. 17 years of "talks" over 22% of "the common homeland" and up until now zip. Who cares what lies underneath the philosophical streams of the new Zionism, I don't.
#191494 Will Wed Jan 23rd 21:10:03 2008
tell me will, where else in the world do african-americans live beside the usa?
Lots of places Eugene, I know this may come as a disappointment to you but they did achieve full civil rights in the end and now they can go wherever they like.
now tell me also, where else in the world do arabs live beside israel and West Bank and Gaza?
Lots of places Eugene, but the Arab Association for Human Rights (HRA), founded in 1988 by lawyers and community activists, is an independent, grassroots, non-governmental organization (NGO), registered in Israel. And most importantly for you Eugene, HRA works to promote and protect the political, civil, economic, and cultural rights of the Palestinian Arab minority in Israel from an international human rights perspective.
#191495 ben Wed Jan 23rd 21:33:47 2008
I know this may come as a disappointment to you but they did achieve full civil rights in the end and now they can go wherever they like.
no one ever stopped african americans from leaving america, at least not since the civil war.
#191496 eugene Wed Jan 23rd 21:50:09 2008
that's nice
#191497 Will Wed Jan 23rd 21:51:08 2008
Thanks for that nugget Ben,
Why dont you write a book about it?
#191498 eugene Wed Jan 23rd 22:23:58 2008
I know this may come as a disappointment to you but they did achieve full civil rights in the end and now they can go wherever they like.
Thanks for that nugget Will,
Why dont you write a book about it?
#191500 Will Freedom to be oppressed and murdered is good enough for Arabs and Blacks.. Wed Jan 23rd 23:16:14 2008
What about Emmet till, Ben ? Did anyone ever stop him from leaving america, since the civil war. What about Denise McNair,Addie Mae Collins, Carole Robertson, and Cynthia Wesley ? Did Robert Chambliss of the KKK stop them going anywhere when he was seen planting the bomb that killed them all yet walked away scot free. Was that before the civil war?
Did anyone stop Martin Luther King going anywhere , Ben?
#191501 Will Eugene Wed Jan 23rd 23:29:19 2008
I am writing a book about it,
It called the Little Vampire who couldn't.
#191502 eugene Thu Jan 24th 00:44:26 2008
you see, will, with a little googling you can write the book yourself
#191503 Will Sorry, cant get it , Huge. Thu Jan 24th 01:14:38 2008
That must be Jewish humour, can you explain it to me ?
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