#192850 ben Mon Jun 16th 19:11:23 2008
When they come back to Ireland for a re-vote one of the conditions on the top of the list will be the strict enforcement of the Conditions in the EU-Israel Association Agreement in relation to Human rights recognition.
will
did you send your tenner in? anyway, i'll believe the above when i see it.
#192851 Will Keeping it real. Mon Jun 16th 20:49:33 2008
Ben
As a matter of fact I have not yielded up the tenner and as we speak my politburo on Irish-Israeli matters is considering whether or not it is in our interest to adhere to previous agreements.
#192852 Will For democracy. Tue Jun 17th 03:17:11 2008
Ben ,
Forgot to say that I also will only believe Euro consideration for democracy when I see it. Dont actually expect to see it. I expect a major standoff. Which the citizens of Europe will win.
#192853 ben Wed Jun 18th 00:27:56 2008
cease fire in gaza, prisoner (or body?) exchange in lebanon. what is this, peace in our time?
#192855 Will Peace would hamstring Israel. Wed Jun 18th 03:31:06 2008
Israel kills 7 Palestinians and injures many more. The Israeli defence Minister refuses to accept that there is an agreement at all. Israeli bunch claiming Shalit is part of the deal , the ones who have him sayin he isnt part of a deal. The Yankees laughing saying they dont believe there is a truce. No word of an agreement for peace in the WB. Some Truce - no international interest bar a whisper on the late news and saying that Hamas have agreed to stop firing rockets from Thursday, Israel will stop "raids". Raids? like the keystone cops, I suppose.
Sounds to me like Hamas is doing a martyr stunt in order to show Egypt up as naive or complicit in Israeli intentions to bleed the Palestinians in every way possible over the next six months. When Hamas rejoin the Israeli War they will have a licence to resist harder.
Peace? more like an endgame to the siege in Gaza.
#192857 ben Wed Jun 18th 09:38:00 2008
sounds to me that you are disappointed that the pali side has made a deal with the zionists.
When Hamas rejoin the Israeli War they will have a licence to resist harder.
license to resist? is this like the james bond license to kill? who is issuing them this license? you? up until now they only had a learner's permit?in the future they will be authorized to do what exactly?
Israel kills 7 Palestinians and injures many more.
and a few days ago hamas etc sent over 60 kassams in response to deaths which they later admitted was the terrorist's own fault. in case no ever told you, that is the ways war's work. someone shoots and the other guy shoots back. it is a bit late in the game to be claiming that hamas is made up of pretty little virgins.
#192858 ben Wed Jun 18th 12:39:54 2008
will
re 849:
looks like the upgrade is unconditional:
In the wake of diplomatic efforts by senior Foreign Ministry officials, the EU made do with a call for movement in Israeli-Palestinian talks, and without conditioning the upgrade on such progress.
www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/993646.html
like i said, you have your work cut out for you.
#192859 Will Wed Jun 18th 12:58:49 2008
Hamas <ha-mass> Noun; : Gaza based organisation of pretty, little virgins licenced to resist / resist harder.
Yes Ben, in war some one shoots and the other guy shoots back except not in a truce. I get the impression that Hamas intend to let Israel continue to shoot and they will refrain from shooting back.Israel wont actually benefit at all from this as Qassams almost never kill and rarely even injure.After all, how many died in the Barrage of 60+ Qassams that you bemoan. The Gazans may suffer heavily as Israel traditionally ramps up it's violence to ensure that nobody might mistakenly believe peace is close at hand.
This is the licence to resist harder, that you think is funny.It is issued by your government and printed on dead bodies in houses around Gaza.I suspect that Hamas will accept it in order to display to the Egyptians when they produce a "quality attack" in response to Israel intransigience and murder during the course of the "truce".Why does it seem clear that only Hamas and the Egyptians are actually signed up to it if it was for any other reason.If it all transpires as one would axpect then what choice will Egypt have but to unilaterally lift the siege on Rafah.The Egyptians are very poor relations in the US -ISrael- Egypt triangle, but they are in it none the less and thay are Hamas' only leverage there.
To answer your query, If I believed that Hamas had made a truce with Israel on the basis that they will stop firing for six months and release Shalit in return for an end to "raids" in Gaza only with a partial lift of the siege with no deal for prisoners or the West Bank, than yes I would be dissappointed for the Palestinians. But I dont believe they did that, I believe they made a deal with the Egyptians in order to at best, put pressure on one corner of the triangle that it killing them in Gaza, and at worst, to give Israel a chance to print them a licence to resist harder.
#192860 Will Happy Ben Wed Jun 18th 13:20:00 2008
Re the upgrade :
That was one quick and inexplicable turn around from we arent ready to There you go ! Who pushed who's button, where ?
What can I say , Jaron knows better how to explain the manner in which the EU discriminates against the Israeli Regime. He reckons its because they speak Hebrew or English that our governments trip over themselves to do 30 billion Euros worth of trade a year with them whilst they kill off Palestinians and plan attacks against Iran. Anyway, in the middle of all this European Anti-Israel Bias I still managed to boycott a bag of Israeli spuds in County Leitrim the other day.
#192861 ben Wed Jun 18th 13:56:28 2008
I still managed to boycott a bag of Israeli spuds in County Leitrim the other day.
and i managed to boycott some irish potatoes.
#192862 Will Truth ? Wed Jun 18th 13:58:46 2008
Did you really ?
#192863 ben Wed Jun 18th 16:27:12 2008
well, not really.
#192864 Will Bilge Pipes. Wed Jun 18th 19:52:41 2008
Joey,
I guess you dont know what irony actually is and I will also have to assume that you never actually saw me express admiration for the PA.
But as I had already done my Homework assignment with regards to Daniel pipes racist remarks I may as well give them to you.
Below are a selection of 5 racist statements I got from various sources claiming they were made by your hero with very minor alterations, made by me, in order to help you understand the racist nature of the actual statements as they might sound to you if you were in anyway sympathetic to the Arab or Palestinians POV.
* Hebrew language instruction is inevitably laden with Zionist and Jewish religious baggage.
* It fits into a larger pattern in which Jewish officials require greater scrutiny, whether they be Rabbis [or] law enforcement officers. There is a tendency to sympathize with Judaism that we ignore at our peril.
* Jewish converts tend to hold vehemently anti-American, anti-Christian, and anti-Arab attitudes.
* Western European societies are unprepared for the massive immigration of brown-skinned peoples cooking strange foods and maintaining different standards of hygiene...All immigrants bring exotic customs and attitudes, but Jewish customs are more troublesome than most.
* vigilant application of social and political pressure to ensure that Judaism is not accorded special status of any kind in this country.
#192865 Dan Israeli 4 Peace Wed Jun 18th 22:40:41 2008
A quiz
Who said the following words, and in what context were they said?
\"One of the thorniest problems with (-----) concerns restitution of properties that were seized during the (-----) and later...(....\"
\"To deny the return of stolen property, or adequate compensation ... violates basic democratic principles,\" he added.
\"Such denial to a (----) victim is a double humiliation. People who barely survived the war and later learnt that everything they owned had been seized by others, including the (....) state, cannot be expected to wait any longer.\"
#192866 Joe Jews for Jihad Wed Jun 18th 23:54:48 2008
A quiz:
Who said,
There is no solution for the Palestinian question except through Jihad. Initiatives, proposals and international conferences are all a waste of time and vain endeavors.
#192867 eugene Thu Jun 19th 00:38:52 2008
Who said the following words, and in what context were they said?
i think the context is important in order to show why these properties should not yet be restituted:
as we know from history, the Jewish population of Poland had been in violent conflict with the rest of the Polish population for decades. Calls of "kill the Polak" were commonly heard among the Polish Jews as they were afraid the Poles would establish a state on their land. When the League of Nation actually allowed the establishment of such a state, world Jewry declared war against the Polish goyim and started attacking the areas where Poles lived. In the struggle that ensued the Poles gained the upper hand: Polish Jews fled or were expelled from their houses and the new Polish state took over their properties.
The Jews of the world refused to accept the new Polish state and most are in a state of war with it to this day. The Jews of Polish origin are at the forefront of that war, having conducted countless terrorist attacks against the Polish population.
I say that until a state of peace and mutual acceptance exists between Polish Jews and the state of Poland, no restitution or compensation be made to anyone.
#192868 ben Thu Jun 19th 11:32:38 2008
so what are people claiming, that everyone is racist? because i don't see anyone discussing the claim that anyone else made. instead people are simply giving quotes that other people made.
#192869 Will Thu Jun 19th 11:56:26 2008
Ben, you sound confused and childlike , have you been drinking or taking drugs or something ?
Whats the news from Gaza, anyone ? Anybody firing shots ? Do we have a ceasefire ?
#192870 Will Bad Drugs alert. Thu Jun 19th 12:10:20 2008
so what are people claiming,
Its hard to know what anybody's claiming around here for sure, but I think today Eugene is claiming that Your a Polak and I'm a Jew.
#192871 Jaron Thu Jun 19th 12:25:44 2008
In 192860 Will wrote: "What can I say , Jaron knows better how to explain the manner in which the EU discriminates against the Israeli Regime. He reckons its because they speak Hebrew or English that our governments trip over themselves to do 30 billion Euros worth of trade a year with them whilst they kill off Palestinians and plan attacks against Iran."
Name me even one other currently stateless ethnic nationalism that the EU supports statehood for. Kurds? Tibetans? Basques? anyone OTHER than Palestinians? I am all ears. At any rate, I have made my points as well I am currently capable of stating them. Maybe Ben or Eugene can do better.
Congratulations on your democratic resistance to the EU. A government (even one of EU bureaucrats) that isn't readily answerable to its electorate can easily become a tyranny.
#192872 ben Thu Jun 19th 12:49:55 2008
Whats the news from Gaza, anyone ? Anybody firing shots ? Do we have a ceasefire ?
both sides are promising to wipe the floor with the other side if they break the cease fire.
#192873 Will Jaron Thu Jun 19th 13:23:21 2008
If you were to listen to the shrieks and threats coming from those Europonces the last week you would believe it already is a tyranny. They are hell bent on frightening the shit out of everyone in the country. Youre out, your on the slow track, this is an Irish problem. You wont hold Europe back. bla bla bla.Ignorant, ungrateful ... When Sarkozy gets presidency of the EU hes going to do a Marie Antoinette on our Sorry Mick Asses.
"Fishing rights ? ...Let em eat Fish Fingers"
But Hey, They wonna war, we givem a fockin war.
On the subject of Stateless minorities, Didnt Europe support that stateless ethnic minority at the expense of half a continent a few decades back and to this very day.. the eh....what were they called? ... the ehhhh......
The Jews.
#192874 ben Thu Jun 19th 15:00:00 2008
Didnt Europe support that stateless ethnic minority at the expense of half a continent a few decades back
after killing 6,000,000 (this round).
#192875 Will Finkelstein Alert. Thu Jun 19th 15:45:45 2008
Europe Killed the Jews ?
Who killed the tens of millions of Europeans ?
#192877 ben Thu Jun 19th 16:56:15 2008
will
you brought up the fact that 60 years ago europe supported the creation of israel (actually part, not all of europe) without mentioning the context of that support - that it came on the back of the holocaust (caused by german with the willing help of much of europe) and another 1000+ years of persecution. so this european support that you used in your argument with jaron can only be understood in the context of that history.
#192878 Will History ? Thu Jun 19th 17:20:18 2008
No Ben, You are completely off the mark. Europe didnt kill the Jews , as you claim. Nor did much of Europe kill the Jews. Most of Europe didnt help to kill the Jews. I dont even know how much of Germany killed the Jews. But I do know for the fact that it was specifically the Nazi Regime that did target the Jews for annihalation.
During the course of World War 2 which destroyed the Nazi regime and brought about the salvation of the Jewish people who were facing extermination, millions of Europeans gave their lives to defeat the Nazis and millions more were killed by the Nazi regime.
Actually it was not 60 but 90 Years ago that part of Europe , the most powerful part, supported the creation of Israel when it signed the Balfour Declaration in 1917. And it did so with a concurrent decisive manouevre to suppress the Arab nation by cutting the northern Half of Africa in to lots of sqaures.
To this day the most powerful parts of Europe have supported and helped maintain in wealth the state of Israel for that previously stateless ethnic minority the Jews. But unfortunately it has been hijacked by the US backed Israeli military Junta for 60 years, that would be the 60 years of which you talk.
This was in response to Jaron's question :
Name me even one other currently stateless ethnic nationalism that the EU supports statehood for.
The only reason why the Jews are not currently stateless is because of the European powers who did then and do now support them.
#192879 Jaron Thu Jun 19th 18:02:03 2008
Will re 192873,
I encourage you to take a look at Howard Sachar's Israel and Europe, an appraisal in history. If you want to learn more. The short version is that while is more complex than a brief post can convey, Europeon-Israeli relations have varied dramatically. But to call them warm and fuzzy is not accurate.
Will wrote: "If you were to listen to the shrieks and threats coming from those Europonces the last week you would believe it already is a tyranny. They are hell bent on frightening the shit out of everyone in the country. Youre out, your on the slow track, this is an Irish problem. You wont hold Europe back. bla bla bla.Ignorant, ungrateful ... When Sarkozy gets presidency of the EU hes going to do a Marie Antoinette on our Sorry Mick Asses.
"Fishing rights ? ...Let em eat Fish Fingers""
You know it is kind of funny. That same dynamic reminds me of the Jewish Left and how they pushed for Oslo back in the bad old day. Basically the overwhelming propaganda from all ends was that if you were critical of Oslo, questioned anything Arafat did or had reservations about what many considered appeasement, then you were a recalcitrant "enemy of peace" to be demonized. Very different issues, of course, but the overwhelming political and media steamroller dynamic has a similar taste and feel.
Anway, good luck on insisting that the EU have some democratic accountability to its electorate. I am with you on that at least.
In terom
#192880 ben Thu Jun 19th 18:57:51 2008
But I do know for the fact that it was specifically the Nazi Regime that did target the Jews for annihalation.
and it was the spanish and english regimes and at times the french and germans and others that expelled them, persecuted them, and killed them. and it was the french and the dutch and the poles and others who collaborated with the nazis. and it was the germans who put the nazis in power and fought in their armies and helped the regime carry on and it is completely stupid to imply that the holocaust happened in a vacum or that the european support for zionism is disconnected to the european history of antisemitism.
#192881 Will Thu Jun 19th 23:55:15 2008
There is a bit of straw man factory just sprung into action here.
Jaron, I dindnt call European relations with Israel "warm and fuzzy" . I said that Europe supported the creation of Israel. My bank supported me in refurbishing my house, but relations are anything but warm and fuzzy.
Ben I did not say that the holocaust happened in a vacuum, i didnt even imply it, but you claim you took that sense from what I wrote so you can say that you inferred it. Thats your business, not mine.
Theres another straw man here and that is your conflation of the holocaust with my simple assertion that Europe (yes Parts of Europe - the most powerful parts of Europe ) were instrumental in the formation of the Zionist project in Palestine. From the Sykes-picot agreement that denied the Arabs control of the land that eventually became Israel to the Balfour declaration that actually promised the land to the Jews that eventually became Israel. Since then Europe has been instrumental in helping in maintaining Israel's health right up until yeterday when they cleared them for unfettered access to European markets and instiutions. My point is that it puts Jaron's assertion that Europe cares more about Palestinian Nationalism than it does about Jewish Nationalism in an awkward position. Fact does not bear out his claims.
Yours is a completely separate point but you are wrong when you say Europe killed Six million Jews. Europe saved six million Jews and shed oceans of its youngest blood in doing so along with the Americans. Of course the holocaust didnt happen in a vacuum it happend in the massive nightmare that was WW2, far from a vacuum.
You want to bring the holocaust in to my point to Jaron then fine thats up to you but people often do that in order to shame the other person into silence and I must say that that would be the first time I ever saw you pull that type of stunt here. So I give you the benefit of the doubt and say , you are off mark.
My point to Jaron about European support for Israel and your point on whos is responsible for the holocaust may have parrallels in the way you mean things and they dont meet at all in the way I mean things but that the only way we can agree on this one.
#192883 ben Fri Jun 20th 07:29:10 2008
I did not say that the holocaust happened in a vacuum,
i didn't say that you did. i said that your post about the incredible european support for the creation of israel didn't mention anything about what happened in europe during the previous 1000 years. i am not using the holocaust for anything; i am simply pointing out the simple truth that europe's relationship to israel cannot be removed from the history of european antisemitism.
#192884 Efraim Focus Fri Jun 20th 10:38:06 2008
Will,
Hi. Things are quiet for the moment down here by the Gaza Strip.
I think that you are getting caught up in one of those stale discussions relating to definitions. Europe is a continent made up of various nation states which have changed identities and borders over time. The relationship of the Jews residing in Europe to the surrounding non-Jewish populations varied both with time and location. In much the same way the relationship of the State of Israel to the various European states also varied in time and location. For instance, someone wrote that Europe supported the creation of the State of Israel. The European state most involved with Jewish nationalism was Great Britain. At some points in time it supported Jewish nationalism and at other points in time it was in opposition. At the time the State of Israel was created Great Britain was in opposition to that act. Great Britain also supported and, at times, opposed Arab nationalism. In fact much, though by no means all, of British Middle Eastern policies were attempts at reconciling support for both nationalisms.
This doesn't make for overly simplified, one sentence, descriptions or explanations of European policies but I believe it is the way things were and are.
Efraim
#192885 ben Fri Jun 20th 10:46:49 2008
correction:
Europe didnt kill the Jews , as you claim. Nor did much of Europe kill the Jews. Most of Europe didnt help to kill the Jews. I dont even know how much of Germany killed the Jews. But I do know for the fact that it was specifically the Nazi Regime that did target the Jews for annihalation.
i read that as an attempt to remove the holocaust from the european context and to put it in a vacuum. it was no accident of history that the holocaust happened where it happened. further to pin everything on the nazis and to try and exonerate the germans, the french, the poles, the dutch, the british, etc for their roles is doing a whitewash.
and if millions of europeans had to give their lives to defeat the germans, well they only have themselves to blame. they (and the americans for that matter) were all too willing to allow the germans to violate every treaty they signed and to pretend that hitler didn't mean all those nasty things he said.
#192886 Steve Ganot steve.ganot@gmail.com Fri Jun 20th 12:01:52 2008
ben: europe's relationship to israel cannot be removed from the history of european antisemitism.
European antisemitism? What in the world are you talking about? Don't you know that Europeans didn't kill six million Jews in the Holocaust, they saved six million Jews? And while, in some countries, 90% of the Jewish population was murdered, it seems you aren't giving sufficient recognition to the 10% who weren't. The glass isn't 90% empty, it's 10% full
Likewise, rather than taking responsibility for so-called European antisemitism, they can take pride in 2000 years of philosemitism. Don't think of all the Jews who were persecuted, tortured, raped, and burned; think of all the Jews who weren't!
#192887 Will Fri Jun 20th 12:15:53 2008
Ben, cc Efraim,
If people had the knowledge or control to stop their governments in what they were doing then the world would be a different place. More often than not wars are a result of the unwitting and completely bamboozled citizenry being marched out to clean up their governments mess. The fact that they are singing their national anthems and saluting the flag as they do it simply deepens the human tragedy. Especially, when they all start butchering each other.
I believe in the general goodness of people, even war time Germans, in that given the choice most people will pick up an injured bird from the side of the road and actually feel sympathy. Wars are evil and evil has a way of cornering people into places were fear replaces the good.
At the begining of the Movie Private Ryan, when the Americans are getting cut to shreds on the beach by the German machine guns and you feel sick and wonder how that could happen, then the camera switches up to the machine gun nest and you are suddenly viewing it from the German soldiers perspective. Do you think you would have done any different than him in his boots?
Efraim,
I agree with everything you said, in fact I already said a good deal of it on this page. I particularly agree with your last sentence but I think you need to direct that sentence towards Ben and not me. It was he who said "Europe Killed Six million Jews".
This overly simplified sentence with which I cannot possibly agree is the source of the holocaust part of this discussion and nothing else.
#192888 jaron Fri Jun 20th 12:55:42 2008
In 192881 Will wrote: "I dindnt call European relations with Israel "warm and fuzzy" . I said that Europe supported the creation of Israel. My bank supported me in refurbishing my house, but relations are anything but warm and fuzzy."
In political terms, 60 years ago is ancient history. Maybe not for the historically minded, but certainly as it pertains to current diplomacy. If I did one nice thing for you (after 2000 years of persecution) 60 years ago, and then proceeded to resume the normal practice of thumping, I would hardly consider that to be good relations.
In the last analysis it comes down to the fact that Palestinian nationalism is exceptionally lucky in that its "evil other" (as most ethnic nationalisms have) is the Jews. This gives them resources that any other ethnic nationalism (Kurds, Tibetans, Basques, and others) can't even dream of. Among those resources is EU support.
You view this from the Palestinian glasses, where if the EU isn't supporting Palestinian nationalism as much as Zionism, then there is an imbalance. Try it from the lens of any stateless ethnic nationalism OTHER than the Palestinians. Those causes aren't even on the EU radar for all practical purposes. I would wager that if all of historical Palestine were occupied by Syria (and Israel didn't exist), Palestine wouldn't even be on the EU (or your) agenda.
#192889 ben Fri Jun 20th 13:37:18 2008
steve
What in the world are you talking about?
you're probably right. in fact, one can even go so far as to state that european support for the creation of the state of israel had nothing to do with the history of jews in europe. rather, it was probably a combination of love of jews, colonialism, and zionist control of the media.
#192890 ben Fri Jun 20th 13:49:06 2008
even war time Germans, in that given the choice most people will pick up an injured bird from the side of the road and actually feel sympathy.
a scene from the war:
hanz and friz are sitting down in late afternoon, drinking a beer.
friz: so hanz, how was your day?
hanz: ya, ya, very gut. we gazzed hundreds of jews and burned their bodies very fast. very efficient.
friz: hanz you are amazing. vhat a miracle, german engineering.
hanz: thank you friz. friz, what is that next to the road?
friz: i think that it is an injured bird. let's go look.
hanz: yes, oh the poor thing. i am going to cry.
friz: hanz you are such a good person.
#192891 Will Fri Jun 20th 14:20:57 2008
Two brothers are standing in the most evil place on earth.
Hanz: Fritz, are you crazy the Colonel is looking at your post.
Fritz: Ya ya Hanz I am coming.
Hanz : What is that you have in your hand ?
Fritz : It is a bird, I think it is injured.
Hanz: What are you going to do with it ?
Fritz : A rat was trying to eat it I'm just leaving it up here.
Hanz: It's going to die anyway you idiot and you will be shot if you dont get back at your post.
Hanz: I know that Fritz, Danka.I am coming.
#192892 Will Absolute fantasy. Fri Jun 20th 15:56:08 2008
Looks to me Jaron, like you are tyring to insinuate the the EU or even Europe persecuted the Jews for 2000 years.I'd like to be able to say that's funny , but it's not. Its just plain daft.
Id like to say that your calling Palestinian nationalism "lucky" is funny, but it's not . In light of their 60 years of suffering in a political wasteland, I'd say its a dam insult to those people. If but you were that lucky, Jaron.You are in cuckooland talking about the resources they have to hand, absolute mindless self-delusion.They have nothing.
The Kurds have for all intents and purposes at this stage..independence. Enforced by European planes for years in the sky overhead and boots on the ground as we speak. They are lucky compared to the rest of the Iraqis.
I would wager that if all of historical Palestine were occupied by Syria (and Israel didn't exist), Palestine wouldn't even be on the EU (or your) agenda
Palestine isnt on the EU agenda,They just gave Israel the super-pass to the EU markets against their own recommendations on Human rights recogntion in the agreement and over the Quartets demands that Israel cease settlement construction in Palestine.
The Palestinian government elected by the people has certainly not been on any agenda for the last two years other than to ignore tham until they go away.
You are crazy when you say the Palestinians are getting supported or are on the agenda. Disneyland stuff.
#192893 Jaron Fri Jun 20th 18:37:14 2008
In 192892 Will wrote: "Looks to me Jaron, like you are tyring to insinuate the the EU or even Europe persecuted the Jews for 2000 years.I'd like to be able to say that's funny , but it's not. Its just plain daft."
My bad. Jewish history in Europe has been a state of bliss from the dark ages to the 1900's. I just misunderstood that explusion, pogroms, forced conversions and blood libels were not really expressions of love. My fault.
Will wrote: "Id like to say that your calling Palestinian nationalism "lucky" is funny, but it's not . In light of their 60 years of suffering in a political wasteland, I'd say its a dam insult to those people."
You are thinking about the life of the average Palestinian when you say that. That fault lies with their own leadership as much as anything else. I am talking of the CAUSE of Palestinian nationalism. I maintain that the said cause wouldn't even be a 3 line article on the back page of a newspaper if they were opposed to anyone OTHER than the Jews.
Will wrote: " If but you were that lucky, Jaron.You are in cuckooland talking about the resources they have to hand, absolute mindless self-delusion.They have nothing."
How about a special status for their refugees unique to any other form of refugee on this planet? There are essentially 2 forms of refugee, Palestinian and all others. Or a regular stream of UN support by a UN human rights body that doesn't care about minor things like genocide? There are entire UN organs devoted to promoting nothing but Palestinian nationalism. I am unaware of any other UN organ promoting the creation of a state for an ethnic nationalism OTHER than the Palestinians. Maybe you can name me one? Or support among the Muslim world that ranks "Palestine" as one of their top agenda items. Or support even from Zionists such as myself for a Palestinian state. What a hopeless cause. The Tibetans, Basques and Kurds couldn't even dream of such resources. Women in parts of the Arab world that practice gender apartheid can't even hope for such levels of international support. An in progress genocide in Darfur doesn't even merit what Palestinian nationalism gets in terms of the bloody western left. Will, those are tangible concrete examples you can't deny. It isn't fantasy, but verifiable actions by recent political bodies. And non-actions where Palestine isn't the issue.
Will wrote: "The Kurds have for all intents and purposes at this stage..independence."
Balls. Name me even one government on this earth that is on record saying that it would recognize or support the creation of a separate Kurdish state? I bet you can't. At best they have a sort of defacto autonomy under US protection, but that is as far as it goes. After surviving the Anfal campaign (which your folks of course said nothing about) the Kurds deserve better than history (and the US government) has given them. If only the Republican Guard spoke Hebrew or English perhaps Kurdistan would suddenly become more important.
Will wrote: "Enforced by European planes for years in the sky overhead and boots on the ground as we speak. They are lucky compared to the rest of the Iraqis."
Try US boots and planes. And even then, the US betrayed the Kurds and southern Shi'a after the first gulf war. Certainly Kurdistan won't be on the UN or EU radar any time soon in terms of support for statehood. But, maybe I am living in fantasy land. Why don't you enlighten me? Tell me about even ONE state on this planet that is on record saying it supports Kurdish statehood. Share with me your superior insight on the matter. I can show you plenty who support Palestinian statehood.
Will wrote: "Palestine isnt on the EU agenda,They just gave Israel the super-pass to the EU markets against their own recommendations on Human rights recogntion in the agreement and over the Quartets demands that Israel cease settlement construction in Palestine."
ec.europa.eu/external_relations/occupied_palestinian_territory/index_en.htm
This would be an example of the EU staying away from Paletine?
Will wrote: "You are crazy when you say the Palestinians are getting supported or are on the agenda. Disneyland stuff."
The EU must be in Disneyland when it pays the PA budget. The EU bought Arafat his semtex for years and today it keeps the PA afloat financially. That is yet one more tangible example of support. Tell me about any OTHER stateless ethnic nationalism that is funded by your tax Euros? Even one? Who is in Disneyland now?
#192896 Jaron Sat Jun 21st 11:15:31 2008
Will,
RE 192895. Your impersonator is apprarently back. Can one of the editors please delete 192895?
#192897 Well Riddles in the dark. Sat Jun 21st 15:13:12 2008
It probably is one of the editors Jaron,
Its like being followed by Smeagol. He thinks of us in terms of nasty hobbitses and nice hobbitses. The forum is his precious and he thinks of nothing else as he sits in the shadows dreaming of the days when he and his precious were together in the dark.
They wants it back from the nasty hobbitses.
#192900 Will In Walt we trust. Sun Jun 22nd 01:07:41 2008
Jaron,
I dont know what you mean when you say "sort of defacto autonomy under US protection" they have Autonomy, defacto or otherwise it is an autonomous region, Whats more, they have for all intents and purposes de-facto independence as there is no Iraqi government to come back and enforce the will of the mammy-state upon them anymore. They have a powerful army and a strong economy. They also have Powerful allies in the form of the US and Europe. So its not a sort of autonomy, its full autonomy with a defacto independence that seems unlikely to be challenged in the near future by anybody at all.
Also the No fly zones were a joint UK, French and US campaign to provide protection for the region. If I can still count properly after having read your last post , that's a majority European venture. The British boots on the ground are beyond contradiction even in your Disneyfied view of the world. So thats - Boots on the ground after an enforced air space protection for a Kurdish Autonomous region which now has a "sort of defacto" independence.
The day I see British French and American planes flying back and forward over Gaza and Ramallah and Al-Quds shooting down Israeli Apaches and taking out Israeli radar bases over an autonomous Sovereign Palestine with it's powerful army and it's strong economy.... then I will take notice of your ....... "Balls" !
Id like you to teach me about the Palestinian refugeee status and the ways in which it is special and apparently enviable. To me it appears to be special in no other way except that it is intended to be permanent and the UN has set up special agencies to cater for that projected special permanency. The UN and Europe appear to be supportive of Palestinian Independence as a long term (cosmic) permanent impediment to kissing Israel's ass (all over).
For the record; and Im not talking about just here, I'm talking about for current and all future generations of mankind and that includes you Jaron; providing the conditions of life to a people that nurtures normal free behaviour is what I call supporting Independence. Your crippled version of supporting independence , whereby some pointless local goofball in Maryland or the Guangdong province, for example, says "lets take a vote on support for Kurdish independence, guys, it's about time those poor bastards caught a break". is a whimsical concept. And the numerous "stateless ethnic-minorities" that you harp on about would probably be better of if "zionists such as yourself' didnt support them. Who knows they might get their own bumper sticker someday if they just keep their heads down and hope that the Mammy state stumbles into the target sights of your beloved Neocons. Cos , as far as I can see that's how the Kurds got to where thay are now - practically by accident.
In that context we can only wait until the day when the Israeli demagogs take a step too far like poor old Saddam. Then Abra Kebara ..Palestinian Autonomy. I'd bet the terrorist elements among them would be calling it Independence before the week was out.