... and when some Arabs come in it was only to hold it in trust for Efraim's family to return.....
#191602 eugene Sun Jan 27th 21:32:02 2008
so what is your question? the girls played chicken with the police and won.
i guess this is just about how the "secularists" in israel persecute the modest daughters of zion and treat them, in their words, "worse than the arabs" (i guess people who make such statements are either disconnected from reality or propagandist liars).
#191605 ben Mon Jan 28th 13:09:01 2008
omri sharon will be going to prison, for seven months, starting at the end of February. his final appeal felt flat. with good behavior he should be out after four months.
#191606 george Mon Jan 28th 14:05:50 2008
191601 ben
I suppose my point is that, (a) the news doesn't really know (or certainly doesn't really explain) what is going on, and (b), I do not believe that the police did not know the identity of at least most of the girls - the police were just playing bully to put the the girls in their place (as the police see the girls' place to be). Even as a lay-person in these matters, it seems obvious - as soon as one knows the name of the parents, just look up the birth (or immigration) records and presto - you know the name of the girls. (Even with just the school name, look up the registration records of the school.) I am sure that the police have the authority to see such records.
Indeed, some articles did mention the name of the girl's school, and it seems rather obvious that, as the news reports, the girls' friends (those they went to school with) so openly made themselves visible by openly protesting (and even stopping the car of some official, according to one report, or even causing the car to swerve into a near accident), there is no way the police did not know plenty about the girls, including where they "spent their time".
Did the parents refuse to sign whatever paperwork is required to release the girls? It doesn't say that, so if it is true, the news should have done a better job reporting that. It just says the parents agreed not to divulge information.
#191608 george Mon Jan 28th 14:31:01 2008
191602 eugene
My opinion is different. My opinion is that, indeed, the police treated these girls worst than "Arabs" who occupy someone else's land* (with a possible exception if the land belongs to special protected leftist elite, or a token action when enough pressure is palced by the "rightist" members of a coalition on the government), even though in this case the girls were not occupying "someone else's" land (as far as the Israeli land registry is concerned). This, of course, refers to the current period, not the "past" (before the girls were born). This, obviously, is what the girls meant. The girls did not mean they are treated worst than Arabs terrorists who are shot dead when caught.
* as example, www.israelnationalnews.com/SendMail.aspx?print=print&type=1&item=7698
#191609 george Mon Jan 28th 14:38:30 2008
191602 eugene
And seeing as you are so sarcastic, you should understand this: what is more modest than moving to a place where no-one else is around?
#191610 ben Mon Jan 28th 14:47:40 2008
george
it was reported here a hundred times that if the parents would have stepped forward and signed for the girls, they would have been released. here is an article in which one of the parents states in black and white neither she (a mother) nor any other parent would do anything to have the girls released:
//www.makor1.co.il/makor/Article.faces;.e34Mc3aTbNiTby0LaxmNbxqRchmMe0?articleId=28242&channel=1&subchannel=3
#191611 george Mon Jan 28th 15:05:06 2008
191610 ben
I suppose I worded myself poorly, but I thought that after all the times I had already mentioned this before, it could be taken for granted. I should have said: the English language media.
#191612 george Mon Jan 28th 15:08:08 2008
So, more accuastions and counter-accusations. Or is someone in the Prime Minister's office doing things the Prime Minsiter knows nothing about?
Col. [Res.] Dubi Amitai told Army Radio he added his name to the letter after the Prime Minister's Office called him and asked him to; Olmert's office denies being the source of the petition. //www.jpost.com/servlet/Satellite?cid=1201471498474&pagename=JPost%2FJPArticle%2FShowFull
#191613 george Mon Jan 28th 15:14:44 2008
Interesting contrast of headlines, though both cities claim to be taking care of the homeless. Any objective studty of what really happens?
www.jpost.com/servlet/Satellite?cid=1201367878940&pagename=JPost%2FJPArticle%2FShowFull
www.jpost.com/servlet/Satellite?cid=1201471501016&pagename=JPost%2FJPArticle%2FShowFull
#191614 ben Mon Jan 28th 15:22:15 2008
george
so if you can't understand the main news sources and rely on arutz 7 and the jpost, perhaps you should be a bit more circumspect when making judgments like:
b), I do not believe that the police did not know the identity of at least most of the girls - the police were just playing bully to put the the girls in their place
and how do you know what those girls meant?
#191615 george Mon Jan 28th 16:07:06 2008
191614 ben
I suppose that my opinion of the event is based not on the details of one event, but the sum of total of accummulated information over many decades from many sources (that includes people here who read both Hebrew and Arabic and relate what those sources have to say, but I hadn't had a chance to talk about this particular event). For one, it is impossible to imagine that the Israeli police are so stupid as to be unable to find out the identities of a few teenage girls. (That is something like telling me that the Israeli army as a whole couldn't hit the side of a barn.)
What the girls meant? From their background, actions and context.
#191616 ben Mon Jan 28th 16:14:41 2008
In Jerusalem, the spokesman of the Winograd inquiry panel into the failures of the Second Lebanon War said that the commission had contacted city officials to make certain that the snow, forecast to begin Tuesday night and continue through Wednesday, would not interfere with the scheduled release of the panel's report on Wednesday evening.
well that's a relief
#191617 george Mon Jan 28th 16:23:27 2008
So, this is how the English language news makes things sound:
Israeli working conditions for the normal-worker (hi-tech specialists and financial industry excluded) is a slavish nightmare (one imagines the body-guards for ministers must be no worse condition the "normal" worker):
www.jpost.com/servlet/Satellite?cid=1201465090993&pagename=JPost%2FJPArticle%2FPrinter
Abbas considers Gaza under Israeli occupation (and Israeli responsibility) as long as a single Israeli occupies any part of any land that Abbas claims as Palestinian:
www.israelnationalnews.com/News/Flash.aspx/140515
And something long-known anyway, Beilin lumps anyone who says anything he doesn't like with "the most hotheaded extreme rightists ... [who] must not sit in the Israeli government" (that being his view of "democracy")
www.israelnationalnews.com/News/Flash.aspx/140471
#191618 ben Mon Jan 28th 16:28:45 2008
george
as i stated, the problem was not that the police couldn't find out what little sarah's name was. identification has to be done in a certain way:
//www.mfa.gov.il/MFA/Government/Law/Legal+Issues+and+Rulings/Israel+Police+treatment+of+juveniles+during+the+period+of+disengagement+15-Aug-2005.htm
this isn't rocket sciene. the rules are simple and the girls refused to go by them. the girls wanted to force the police/courts to release them without their parents signing for them, without a court order restricting their movements, etc. and they got it.
and i don't believe for one second that those girls are sophisticated enough to have meant what you think they mean.
#191619 ben Mon Jan 28th 16:35:25 2008
Israeli working conditions for the normal-worker (hi-tech specialists and financial industry excluded) is a slavish nightmare (one imagines the body-guards for ministers must be no worse condition the "normal" worker):
conditions for people working for subcontractors. you can't judge from that article to the entirety of the israeli economy. that would be like judging what working conditions are in the us based on walmart.
#191620 george Mon Jan 28th 16:37:25 2008
191618 ben
Strange, I never thought what I wrote (about what the girls meant) was so sophisticated. But in any case, one imagines those girls who pulled this off must have been "savvy".
#191621 ben Mon Jan 28th 16:41:01 2008
sophisticated in the sense that they were supposedly differentiating between different types of arab criminals. they weren't savvy so much as tough. i am sure that someone instructed them what to do in case of arrest before they went to that hilltop.
#191623 eugene Mon Jan 28th 17:20:50 2008
And seeing as you are so sarcastic, you should understand this: what is more modest than moving to a place where no-one else is around?
well, then maybe these girls should move to saudi arabia, there the police care much more about modesty than in israel.
#191624 eugene Mon Jan 28th 18:00:08 2008
ben,
cc: george
the case of these girls is similar to what happened at yale in the laste 90s (http://www.yaleherald.com/archive/xxvi/9.4.98/news/Yalefour.html)
there too a few orthodox students, in collaboration with their parents chose to create a media circus and even force a lawsuit in order to make a point about about alleged discrimination of their lifestyle.
#191625 Wael Mon Jan 28th 18:11:15 2008
Efraim,
Unless you're a spokesman for the Israeli government, my question is still unanswered. Regardless of the technicalities (individual states or through the Arab League...assume what you want).... my question is : Do you, Efraim, agree on a settlement that stipulates evacuating post-1967 settlements in the WB, East Jerusalem, and the Golan, establishing a Palestinian state along the 1967 border in exchange for full diplomatic relations with the Arab (and Muslim) world ?
#191627 eugene Mon Jan 28th 18:12:33 2008
My opinion is that, indeed, the police treated these girls worst than "Arabs" who occupy someone else's land* (with a possible exception if the land belongs to special protected leftist elite, or a token action when enough pressure is palced by the "rightist" members of a coalition on the government), even though in this case the girls were not occupying "someone else's" land (as far as the Israeli land registry is concerned). This, of course, refers to the current period, not the "past" (before the girls were born). This, obviously, is what the girls meant. The girls did not mean they are treated worst than Arabs terrorists who are shot dead when caught.
nonsense.
the girls broke the law and were arrested like anyone else who breaks the law is arrested. then they refused to identify themselves as the law also requires.
why? because they were probably prepared in advance to cause an incident that gets picked up by the media in which they show that they don't recognize the authority of the law in israel (all according to the precepts of rav dov lior).
and they achieve their purpose: we have people like you crying over their terrible fate, a fate that was almost entirely the fabrication of themselves, their parents and whoever advises their parents on issues of redeeming the land.
they were strip searched? well, yeah, that's what happens when you get arrested.
#191628 Wael Mon Jan 28th 18:14:12 2008
Efraim,
BTW, how "formally accept the right of the Jewish people to an independent national existence in the Middle East" is different from "full diplomatic relations with the state of Israel" ? please explain.
#191629 Wael Mon Jan 28th 18:18:39 2008
Ben,
1996, Operation Grapes of Wrath.
#191630 Jaron Mon Jan 28th 18:20:57 2008
Wael,
cc: Efraim
RE 191628. I don't know what it means to Efraim, but to me I don't care about the verbiage of "rights". What I do care about is it being in binding black and white final status treaty language that the Palestinians accept that Palestinian immigration will be limited only to the state of Palestine. I don't care what the borders of Palestine are if that happens.
#191631 Wael Mon Jan 28th 18:32:01 2008
Mass Arab immigration from Egypt began about 140 years ago while mass Arab immigration from other Middle Eastern locales such as Syria began about 90 years ago.
........Palestine was empty waiting for the lord's chosen people to return home ... and when some Arabs come in it was only to hold it in trust for Efraim's family to return.....
#191632 Wael Mon Jan 28th 18:43:56 2008
Joe,
......while you assertion is based on ignoring recent history
Recent history ? rewind a few decades back and most of the Israeli's daddies have never set foot in Palestine.
#191633 Wael Mon Jan 28th 18:45:50 2008
Joe, here's a bit of "recent history" for you :
District of Acre
al-Amqa
Arab al-Samniyya
al-Bassa
al-Birwa
al-Damun
Dayr al-Qassi
al-Ghabisiyya
Iqrit
Iribbin, Khirbat
Jiddin, Khirbat
al-Kabri
Kafr 'Inan
Kuwaykat
al-Manshiyya
al-Mansura
Mi'ar
al-Nabi Rubin
al-Nahr
al-Ruways
Suhmata
al-Sumayriyya
Suruh
al-Tall
Tarbikha
Umm al-Faraj
al-Zeeb
District of Baysan
Arab al-'Arida
Arab al-Bawati
Arab al-Safa
al-Ashrafiyya
al-Bira
Danna
Farwana
al-Fatur
al-Ghazzawiyya
al-Hamidiyya
al-Hamra
Jabbul
Kafra
Kawkab al-Hawa
al-Khunayzir
Masil al-Jizl
al-Murassas
Qumya
al-Sakhina
al-Samiriyya
Sirin
Tall al-Shawk
al-Taqa, Khirbat
al-Tira
Umm 'Ajra
Umm Sabuna, Khirbat
Yubla
Zab'a
al-Zawiya, Khirbat
District of Beersheba
al-Imara
al-Jammama
al-Khalasa
District of Gaza
Arab Suqrir
Barbara
Barqa
al-Batani al-Gharbi
al-Batani al-Sharqi
Beit Daras
Bayt 'Affa
Bayt Jirja
Bayt Tima
Bil'in
Burayr
Dayr Sunayd
Dimra
al-Faluja
Hamama
District of Haifa
Abu Shusha
Abu Zurayq
Arab al-Fuqara
Arab al-Nufay'at
Arab Zahrat al-Dumayri
Atlit
Ayn Ghazal
Ayn Hawd
Balad al-Shaykh
Barrat Qisarya
Burayka
al-Burj, Khirbat
al-Butaymat
Daliyat al-Rawha'
al-Dumun, Khirbat
al-Ghubayya al-Fawqa
al-Ghubayya al-Tahta
Hawsha
Ijzim
Jaba'
al-Jalama
Kabara
al-Kafrayn
Kafr Lam
al-Kasayir, Khirbat
Khubbayza
Lid, Khirbat
al-Manara, Khirbat
al-Mansi
al-Mansura, Khirbat
al-Mazar
al-Naghnaghiyya
Qannir
Qira
Qisarya
Qumbaza, Khirbat
al-Rihaniyya
Sabbarin
al-Sarafand
al-Sarkas, Khirbat
Sa'sa', Khirbat
al-Sawamir
al-Shuna, Khirbat
al-Sindiyana
al-Tantura
al-Tira
Umm al-Shawf
Umm al-Zinat
Wa'arat al-Sarris
Wadi Ara
Yajur
District of Hebron
Ajjur
Barqusya
Bayt Jibrin
Bayt Nattif
al-Dawayima
Dayr al-Dubban
Dayr Nakhkhas
Kudna
Mughallis
al-Qubayba
Ra'na
Tall al-Safi
District of Jaffa
al-'Abbasiyya
Abu Kishk
Bayt Dajan
Biyar 'Adas
Fajja
al-Haram
Ijlil al-Qibliyya
Ijlil al-Shamaliyya
al-Jammasin al-Gharbi
al-Jammasin al-Sharqi
Jarisha
Kafr 'Ana
al-Khayriyya
al-Mas'udiyya
al-Mirr
al-Muwaylih
Rantiya
al-Safiriyya
Salama
Saqiya
al-Sawalima
al-Shaykh Muwannis
Yazur
District of Jerusalem
Allar
Aqqur
Artuf
Bayt 'Itab
Bayt Mahsir
Bayt Naqquba
Bayt Thul
Bayt Umm al-Mays
Bir Nabala
al-Burayj
Colonia
Dayr Aban
Dayr 'Amr
Dayr al-Hawa
Dayr Rafat
Dayr al-Shaykh
Deir Yassin
Ein Karim
Ishwa'
Islin
Ism Allah, Khirbat
Jarash
al-Jura
Kasla
al-Lawz, Khirbat
Lifta
al-Maliha
Nitaf
al-Qabu
al-Qastal
Ras Abu 'Ammar
Sar'a
Saris
Sataf
Sheikh Badr
Suba
Sufla
al-Tannur, Khirbat
al-'Umur, Khirbat
al-Walaja
District of Jenin
Ayn al-Mansi
al-Jawfa, Khirbat
al-Lajjun
al-Mazar
Nuris
Zir'in
District of Nazareth
Indur
Ma'lul
al-Mujaydil
Saffuriyya
al-Subeih
District of al-Ramla
Abu al-Fadl
Abu Shusha
Ajanjul
Aqir
Barfiliya
al-Barriyya
Bashshit
Bayt Far, Khirbat
Bayt Jiz
Bayt Nabala
Bayt Shanna
Bayt Susin
Bir Ma'in
Bir Salim
al-Burj
al-Buwayra, Khirbat
Daniyal
Dayr Abu Salama
Dayr Ayyub
Dayr Muhaysin
Dayr Tarif
al-Duhayriyya, Khirbat
al-Haditha
Idnibba
Innaba
Jilya
Jimzu
Kharruba
al-Khayma
Khulda
al-Kunayyisa
al-Latrun
al-Maghar
Majdal Yaba
al-Mansura, Ramla
al-Mukhayzin
al-Muzayri'a
al-Na'ani
an-Nabi Rubin
Qatra
Qazaza
al-Qubab
al-Qubayba
Qula
Sajad
Salbit
Sarafand al-'Amar
Sarafand al-Kharab
Saydun
Shahma
Shilta
al-Tina
al-Tira
Umm Kalkha
Wadi Hunayn
Yibna
Zakariyya, Khirbat
Zarnuqa
District of Safad
Abil al-Qamh
al-'Abisiyya
Alma
Ammuqa
Arab al-Shamalina
Arab al-Zubayd
Ayn al-Zaytun
Baysamun
Biriyya
al-Butayha
al-Buwayziyya
Dallata
al-Dawwara
Dayshum
al-Dirbashiyya
al-Dirdara
Fara
al-Farradiyya
Fir'im
Ghabbatiyya
Ghuraba
al-Hamra'
Harrawi
Hunin
al-Husayniyya
Jahula
al-Ja'una
Jubb Yusuf
Kafr Bir'im
al-Khalisa
Khan al-Duwayr
Karraza, Khirbat
al-Khisas
Khiyam al-Walid
Kirad al-Baqqara
Kirad al-Ghannama
Lazzaza
Madahil
al-Malikiyya
Mallaha
al-Manshiyya
al-Mansura, Safad
Mansurat al-Khayt
Marus
Mirun
al-Muftakhira
Mughr al-Khayt
al-Muntar, Khirbat
al-Nabi Yusha'
al-Na'ima
Qabba'a
Qadas
Qaddita
Qaytiyya
al-Qudayriyya
al-Ras al-Ahmar
Sabalan
Safsaf
Saliha
al-Salihiyya
al-Sammu'i
al-Sanbariyya
Sa'sa'
al-Shawka al-Tahta
al-Shuna
Taytaba
Tulayl
al-'Ulmaniyya
al-'Urayfiyya
al-Wayziyya
Yarda
al-Zahiriyya al-Tahta
al-Zanghariyya
al-Zawiya
al-Zuq al-Fawqani
al-Zuq al-Tahtani
District of Tiberias
Awlam
al-Dalhamiyya
Ghuwayr Abu Shusha
Hadatha
al-Hamma
Hittin
Kafr Sabt
Lubya
Ma'dhar
al-Majdal
al-Manara
al-Manshiyya
al-Mansura, Tiberias
Nasir al-Din
Nimrin
al-Nuqayb
Samakh
al-Samakiyya
al-Samra
al-Shajara
al-Tabigha
al-'Ubaydiyya
Wadi al-Hamam
al-Wa'ra al-Sawda', Khirbat
Yaquq
District of Tulkarm
Bayt Lid, Khirbat
Bayyarat Hannun
Fardisya
Ghabat Kafr Sur
al-Jalama
Kafr Saba
al-Majdal, Khirbat
al-Manshiyya
Miska
Qaqun
Raml Zayta
Tabsur
Umm Khalid
Wadi al-Hawarith
Wadi Qabbani
al-Zababida, Khirbat
Zalafa, Khirbat
Umm Burj, Khirbat
az-Zakariyya
Zayta
Hatta
Hiribya
Huj
Hulayqat
Ibdis
Iraq al-Manshiyya
Iraq Suwaydan
Isdud
al-Jaladiyya
al-Jiyya
Julis
al-Jura
Jusayr
Karatiyya
Kawfakha
Kawkaba
al-Khisas
al-Masmiyya al-Kabira
al-Masmiyya al-Saghira
al-Muharraqa
Najd
Ni'ilya
Qastina
al-Sawafir al-Gharbiyya
al-Sawafir al-Shamaliyya
al-Sawafir al-Sharqiyya
Simsim
Summil
Tall al-Turmus
Yasur
#191634 george Mon Jan 28th 18:56:02 2008
191619 ben
The question is two-fold: the morality of a system that allows it even for sub-contractors; what proportion of the population is similar. One cannot judge "what working conditions are in the US based on Walmart", only as long as the Walmart style is an insignificant proprotion of the economy. I have no idea what the numbers are (either in Israel or US). But the attention-getting portion of the article is that it is happening in a "security" situation where the well-being of public-officials are at stake. And here in North America, where there is talk (and more) about "privatizing" the jail system, it is certainly of interest. Wonder what a privatized jail-system might look like and what it would do (and fail to do) in order to increase profits ....
#191635 george Mon Jan 28th 19:00:43 2008
191627 eugene
Which is why I supplied a link with an example of Arabs breaking Israeli law quite openly (the illegal occupants were also illegal aliens in the country as well) and the police wouldn't touch them.
#191637 eugene Mon Jan 28th 19:36:56 2008
Which is why I supplied a link with an example of Arabs breaking Israeli law quite openly (the illegal occupants were also illegal aliens in the country as well) and the police wouldn't touch them.
what can i tell you george? the arabs have it so good in israel compared to dov lior's followers.
#191638 george Mon Jan 28th 19:41:36 2008
191624 eugene
If we want to talk about the "Yale Four", then ... Let's see. The argument goes something like: Yale is private (thus the judge's coment that the students can go somewhere else), so it can do what it wants. Strange how such places as Yeshiva Univesity are also private but when it came to homosexuals restrictions they were not allowed to do as they want.
As for arguments about the "Yale Four" (without mentioning such things as Y.U.) www.firstthings.com/article.php3?id_article=3101
And here in Canada they are seriously going out on a campaign to deliberately create publicly-funded-schools restricted to a particular dark-skin-colour, at the insistance of those with darker-coloured skin, and over the objections of those with lighter-coloured-skin.
#191639 eugene Mon Jan 28th 19:49:43 2008
george, the yale four belong to a jewish family that decided they wanted to live in 19th century vilna but be in new haven at the same time. they are the kind of people who are intolerant but will use democratic principles to plead for tolerance and persecution.
same with the likes of rav lior: they don't recognize the authority of israeli law, but are happy to live under the protection of the idf and the police.
#191640 eugene Mon Jan 28th 20:11:06 2008
Strange how such places as Yeshiva Univesity are also private but when it came to homosexuals restrictions they were not allowed to do as they want.
stranger still how YU is receiving state and federal money.
#191641 ben Mon Jan 28th 22:42:59 2008
george
re 634
AFAIK every western country allows subcontractors. the percentage of even white collar workers in the US who work for subcontractors is rising every year.
as far as the nature of the story goes, i find it completely understandable that the situation got to be that way with the guards. there is obviously a very small number of people who are qualified and allowed to work as a guard for a cabinet minister. these guys have very very rough schedules and the guards suffer for it. but you can't make a judgment from that story to the rest of israel, or even to other subcontractors. for example, moi. i work for a high tech company as a subcontractor and my conditions are fine.
#191642 ben addendum Mon Jan 28th 23:01:21 2008
there is obviously a very small number of people who are qualified and allowed and want to work as a guard for a cabinet minister.
#191643 ben Mon Jan 28th 23:02:57 2008
eugene/george
re YU
afaik YU receives money for their undergraduate and grad school, and these institutions have to go by the rules. their rabbinic college is out of bounds as far as federal funding goes.
#191644 Joe Wael's List Tue Jan 29th 02:51:37 2008
Wael's debating style:
1.) Wael asks Efraim about "full diplomatic relations" a la 1967:
In that case Efraim, how many of you here would agree on evacuating post-1967 settlements in the WB, East Jerusalem, and the Golan, establishing a Palestinian state along the 1967 border in exchange for full diplomatic relations with the Arab (and Muslim) world ?
2.) Joe asks Wael where "full diplomatic relations" were before 1967:
Where was the "full diplomatic relations" before Israel had these terrortories prior to the '67 war?
3.) Wael cuts & pastes his famous list
Wael,
When confronted with data showing the Israelis already complied with the same proposal you make today, will your response always be a list of villages the Palestinians fled when they started a war with Israel? Or do you have some assurances the war with Israel wouldn't continue as it did when Israel wasn't "occupying" any terrortory?
Thanks.
#191645 Joshua Tue Jan 29th 04:24:02 2008
Been a while, and probably will be a while again. But since I've dropped in.
Wael, what has the Gazans collective punishment of the residents of Sderot accomplished? And what did the Lebanese collective punishment of Israelis in the north accomplished?
#191647 ben Tue Jan 29th 10:49:05 2008
Strange how such places as Yeshiva Univesity are also private but . . .
what is strange? the guy who pays determines the rules. if YU doesn't want to abide by federal regulations, all it has to do is send a letter to the federal government telling them thanks, but no thanks, we don't need your money.
a prediction: i don't see that happening any time soon.
#191649 Will ZZZZZZzzzzzzzzzzz Tue Jan 29th 12:26:07 2008
...........and probably will be a while again
Seeya , Joshua.