#830 Joe Balagan Newz Mon Jan 29th 13:35:00 2007
What is no good at all is to fill one's mouth screaming for democracy to come, and then when the first step is taken, which is to vote, the results of the voting are rejected and the country is penalised. That's not a fair game. So what is it? go for democracy as long as I like the candidate chosen?
Maria -
cc: Eugene
For once Eugene and myself agree. Hitler's rise to power was all done by the power of the ballot box. No difference with Hamas. I'm glad they had a vote, and I am very sorry about the result. Unfortunately, the Palestinians have paid for their "collective" decision.
Now the international community (Entity included) is making a big performance of funding Abu Mazen and Fatah so as to counter Hamas... as if the funding of Fatah, without responsibility, without budgets and going straight to the leaders of Fatah's pocket had not been a main reason of the Palestinian corruption that brought Hamas to power in the first place.
Evidently, the international community, the US and ISRAEL have come to the conclusion that while both Palestinian camps is KNEE DEEP in terrorism (which we all knew through those lovely years of handshankes and Wye River parties), one terrorist organization will negotiate with and recognize Israel and one will not. This is a difference, I think, Liberals like Ira can appreciate. And I agree on this as well.
It would be great if there was a "Yefeh Nefesh"-type party in Palestine to negotiate with, but there isn't any.
Az ma la'asot?
When Arafat was around, there was no opposition party, therefore there was no incentive for Arafat to disarm or confront any terrorists. Now that we have two distinct parties in power (not the usual formula in the "Arab Thugocracy Handbook"), this, at least, gives the Palestinians the cover they need to get rid of the most intransigent elements within their society.
What a mob. What a bunch of idiots.
Tell me something I already don't know.
Maria -
Right now, what do you think the international community, the US and Israel should be doing instead?
Ben asks:
maybe it is simply that the terrorists are trying to determine who will be the top dog and nothing more than that?
Yup. Which "dog" do you prefer?
#831 maría etc. Mon Jan 29th 13:35:49 2007
George
The law use-to-be that there was no such a thing. That is, the law itself use-to discriminate that no matter what a female did, she could not be charged with rape as a crime.
Also because, together with declaring and fighting wars, rape is more testosterone related. Perhaps them women have not usually been charged with rape because simply they have not been rapists, all the twisting of the argument notwithstanding.
maría
#832 maría etc. Mon Jan 29th 13:38:05 2007
Joe khamud
For once Eugene and myself agree. Hitler's rise to power was all done by the power of the ballot box.... blablabla
Spare me please the Hitler's comparisons; they have the doubtful virtue to overloadeverything in the negative, bring no light to any discussion and are unacceptable.
maría
#833 maría etc. Mon Jan 29th 13:41:36 2007
Joe
When Arafat was around, there was no opposition party, therefore there was no incentive for Arafat to disarm or confront any terrorists.
You had written already before (and I strongly disagreed with your understanding) :
During the 40 years of Arafat rule, this was imposible. Arafat was smart enough not to disarm those who opposed him.
I still strongly disagree and don't take it as a given at all.
maría
#834 Joe Our wonderful state senators Newz Mon Jan 29th 13:46:13 2007
Just think, John "F'in" Kerry was almost president...
http://www.iran-daily.com/1385/2769/pdf/i1.pdf
Maria -
OK. The American people voted in the murderous, heinous, bloodthirsty, satanic George W. Bush!
I bet it all makes sense now! Nachon?
#835 ben Mon Jan 29th 13:47:30 2007
When Arafat was around, there was no opposition party, therefore there was no incentive for Arafat to disarm or confront any terrorists.
joe
what absolute, complete nonsense! under the cover of democracy you have abu mazen trying to use armed force to destroy another group. now you yourself admit that democracy has nothing to do with this.
arafat would have confronted hamas, tanzin, the jihad et al had there been some sort of opposition group in the palestenian parliment? where do you get this stuff?
#836 Joe Mon Jan 29th 13:49:37 2007
Eilat bombing:
Let the forum know where the "hole" in the security system was located...
http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-3358185,00.html
#837 Eugene Mon Jan 29th 13:52:19 2007
maria,
Of course I agree that countries are not obliged at all to finance those they dislike, even when issued of acceptable elections, but financing "our own son of a bitch" should not be called supporting democracy, if only because it is the other "son of a bitch" who won the last elections.
people who, looking at Iraq for the past 2 years, saw "progress" and were "optimistic" and think that the killings there are signs of movement toward democracy will also think that lining Abu Mazen and his satrap's pockets is also supporting democracy 
#838 george Mon Jan 29th 13:54:03 2007
831 maría
How enormously strange. You sound rather prejudiced in the matter. A little google search brings up such things as a female raping a male while he is asleep:
http://www.foundrymusic.com/media/displayheadline.cfm/id/7503/page/show_headline_number_7503.html
48-year-old female staturoy-raping a 13-year old male
http://www.topix.net/forum/city/batavia-ny/T78I7H8GO7PC1G7M5
this time rape and incest:
http://www.redtram.com/go/52051281/
and a female adult on a female minor rape:
http://www.helenair.com/articles/2006/02/14/helena/a07021406_02.txt
and this one about a female politician charged (along with males) from the technical aspect of her being an authority (an "architect" of the events):
> Rwandan Woman Charged With Rape and Genocide
http://www.globalpolicy.org/intljustice/tribunals/2001/0613rwnd.htm
#839 maría etc. Mon Jan 29th 13:56:12 2007
Joe, more
(maría) Now the international community (Entity included) is making a big performance of funding Abu Mazen and Fatah so as to counter Hamas... as if the funding of Fatah, without responsibility, without budgets and going straight to the leaders of Fatah's pocket had not been a main reason of the Palestinian corruption that brought Hamas to power in the first place.
(Joe) Evidently, the international community, the US and ISRAEL have come to the conclusion that while both Palestinian camps is KNEE DEEP in terrorism (which we all knew through those lovely years of handshankes and Wye River parties), one terrorist organization will negotiate with and recognize Israel and one will not. This is a difference, I think, Liberals like Ira can appreciate. And I agree on this as well.
I see more of a time-related than an essential difference. Hamas stands today where PLO stood before Algiers.
It would be great if there was a "Yefeh Nefesh"-type party in Palestine to negotiate with, but there isn't any.
Habibi, that's the quid of the question. Arab countries offer in general only two political choices now : either the old corrupt elites that have been in power since the Ottomans or roughly, or islamist parties; there is nothing in between.
Supposing the idiots in charge of those things in the USA and EU are aware of that (they should by now). Next step would be to suppose that they also become aware that one of the reasons for the rise of islamist parties is the mega-corruption of the old elites and the absence of other alternatives.
With that understood, why on earth would anyone stay the course of funding and funding the same old corrupt elites? Funding and funding them doesn't make them hold to power, more corruption is introduced into the respective systems and more and more islamists are elected when elections are possible... or elections are simply not held (Egypt for example) because islamists would win them given real free choices.
Az ma la'asot?
I don't have "the right solution", but at least I have the "solution" that costs less money to taxpayers : not to fund corrupt elites unless under a frame of stick and carrot development, with a strict calendar for implementation : I fund you if you de-corrupt yourself, install good governance and accountibility and go only for non-violent ways of solving the issue with the neighbours. You don't do that, I don't give you one penny.
Pakhot o yoter, to keep it simple.
maría
#840 maría etc. Mon Jan 29th 14:02:22 2007
George, on rape
How enormously strange.
You don't sound strange to me at all. You sound like a headless, old fashioned, dated male trying to load the case of women rapists so as to disregard that males are those who rape, all your insistent nonsense notwithstanding.
You sound rather prejudiced in the matter.
You can bet all your testosterone that I am, and I am seriously prejudiced against males who want to diminish the size, scope and numbers of male rapists trying to enter the argument that "women do too".
Ikhkhkhsss to your argument, if you are familiar with Israeli onomatopoeia for "revolting"
A little google search brings up such things as a female raping a male while he is asleep:
No, you google it till your gonads fall to the floor if you are interested in making equivalence between rapes by males and females; I have more respect for my time and my neurones than you seem to have for yours. Move over with the nonsense.
maría
#841 maría etc. Mon Jan 29th 14:06:37 2007
Joe
Just think, John "F'in" Kerry was almost president...
http://www.iran-daily.com/1385/2769/pdf/i1.pdf
Maria -
OK. The American people voted in the murderous, heinous, bloodthirsty, satanic George W. Bush!
I bet it all makes sense now! Nachon?
Not really, I don't understand anything of what your message might be. Can you reason it in foreigners-English? (no links pls, I don't click them )
maría
#842 george Mon Jan 29th 14:33:38 2007
811 maría
You don't have to read the story. Leo Frank was charged with raping and killing a young white girl. The point is, that in order to have a meaningful opinion, one has to know the politics of the situation.
In the case of Leo Frank, the prosecutor could (and did) "dig up" any number of witnesses, including an alleged "eye witness" accomplice - great stuff, right?. No problem - when there is a political will, there is a political (or underhanded) way. In the end, the retiring governor of the state, seeing how the entire incident was so blatantly political (and Leo Frank so blatantly innocent as far as the evidence went), knowingly threw away all of his political ambitions in order to follow his conscious and commuted Leo Frank's death penalty to life. (He wanted to exhonerate Frank, but he realized that if he would simply exhonerate Frank, there would be mass riots.) Leo Frank was then lynched by a mob: "The lynch mob consisted of some of Marietta's finest citizens, including a clergyman and an ex-sheriff." No-one was charged even though everyone knew who the lynch mob was.
In terms of the prosecution: "Solicitor General Dorsey realized his political ambitions and became governor of Georgia from 1916 to 1921, largely on his popularity developed during his prosecution of Frank. Tom Watson (the one responsible for stirring up anti-Frank feelings in the media), populist, became even more of a political boss, eventually being elected to the U.S. Senate from Georgia in 1920, but dying shortly thereafter in 1922. At his funeral, the Ku Klux Klan sent an eight-foot tall cross of roses."
As far as the lynched defendant is concerned: "Eventually, Frank was vindicated. In 1982, an old man, Alonzo Mann, came forth with the information that he had seen Jim Conley (one of the "witnesses" against Leo Frank) dragging Mary Phagan's body. Mann, then a thirteen-year-old office boy at the pencil factory, was told by Conley not to tell what he had seen, or Conley would kill him."
Whether the Katsav is guilty or innocent I do not know. But the politics (and media) there reaks so bad that I can smell it from here, just like the politics in the Leo Frank case. What makes O. J. Simpson different is that the politics went in reverse - as a "minority" in the appropriate decade, Simpson had great pull on (sympathy from) the media and so-called "civil rights" groups. And the threat of riot went the other way, namely, a riot if he would be found guilty (rather than the case of Leo Frank were there was a riot if found innocent). What anyone had to gain politically by "framing" Simpson is beyond me. And in the end, the tape (which the jury did not get to see) of the original police chase with the taped conversation he had during that chase seems to clearly show an admission of guilt.
So I don't just "believe" this or that. The one thing I believe is that I base my opinion on solid reasoning.
#843 maría etc. Mon Jan 29th 14:42:54 2007
Eugene
people who, looking at Iraq for the past 2 years, saw "progress" and were "optimistic" and think that the killings there are signs of movement toward democracy will also think that lining Abu Mazen and his satrap's pockets is also supporting democracy
Bedyuk! as if lining the pockets of Arafat and his satraps had been such such a push for peace and development, such an advantage for the Mideast in general and for the Palestinians in particular.
Idiots.
maría
#844 george Mon Jan 29th 14:44:55 2007
811 maría
I forgot to mention, the young white girl victim was an employee of Leo Frank.
#845 maría etc. Mon Jan 29th 15:07:56 2007
George, re the Frank case
You don't have to read the story.
No disrespect intended, but don't waste your energies sending in my direction a summing up of what happened in that case as comparison to what is happening to the creepy president of Israel. To compare both cases is to defy common sense and average IQs.
The point is, that in order to have a meaningful opinion, one has to know the politics of the situation.
Or not. For my own meaningful opinion I don't need politics, I need what I already have, a few spare neurones and masses of cases of rapists-sexual-abusers-at-the-job from where to draw similitudes and conclusions.
This is not about politics, this is about rape, you know what a man raping a woman is, right? so that's what we are talking about, of Katzav having raped a woman, of four different women having brought charges of sexual abuse over the years. Politics is as an anecdote the profession of the creep, but he is not accused for being a politician, he is accused of something as ugly, as revolting, as dirty as that : rape, rape, rape, rape... while representing all Israelis and on their payroll.
And I will leave aside the fact that he abused state funds also; this is more serious
maría
#846 ben Mon Jan 29th 16:43:34 2007
the family of the terrorist knew that he was going out to committ his little act. apparently in gaza, no one even tries to hide that he is suicide bomber any more.
the family, of course, stated that they were filled with happiness when they heard the news today.
#847 ben Mon Jan 29th 17:10:38 2007
Grand Mufti of Palestinian territories issues edict banning internal fighting
and
Ministerial cmte. decides to increase enforcement against settler violence
well, that should be the end of it, in both cases. why didn't anyone think of this sooner?
#848 Jaron Mon Jan 29th 17:19:03 2007
Maria, George,
In 10 years of being a local municipal cop I have seen many reports of females being raped, but can't think of one when a male reported it.
#849 maría etc. Mon Jan 29th 17:58:47 2007
Jaron
cc George
Maria, George,
In 10 years of being a local municipal cop I have seen many reports of females being raped, but can't think of one when a male reported it.
And that's the case everywhere in the bloody world, and because of that reason I will not be drawn into a discussion of "female rapists" as George started. Absolute nonsense.
maría
#850 Joe Elite is just an Israeli food company Mon Jan 29th 18:10:01 2007
Supposing the idiots in charge of those things in the USA and EU are aware of that (they should by now). Next step would be to suppose that they also become aware that one of the reasons for the rise of islamist parties is the mega-corruption of the old elites and the absence of other alternatives.
Maria -
I'm not saying I disagree with you. Since "Time Immemorial" (I love that term for obvious reasons), the alternatives were the old elites or the Islamists.
Thus you recommend:
... not to fund corrupt elites unless under a frame of stick and carrot development, with a strict calendar for implementation : I fund you if you de-corrupt yourself, install good governance and accountibility and go only for non-violent ways of solving the issue with the neighbours. You don't do that, I don't give you one penny.
Theoretically, I agree with you on that as well, however, what we've seen in actuality is that LOADS of money is funneled to the "elites" and "jihadists" anyway. It doesn't work Maria. No with Sadam, not with Iran, and not with the Palis.
Which is why I think regime change is still the best alternative.
#851 maría etc. Mon Jan 29th 18:24:43 2007
Joe
Theoretically, I agree with you on that as well, however, what we've seen in actuality is that LOADS of money is funneled to the "elites" and "jihadists" anyway. It doesn't work Maria. No with Sadam, not with Iran, and not with the Palis.
Can you explain? can you use average standard English? I don't understand a word.
maría
#852 Joe We speak your language Mon Jan 29th 19:10:49 2007
Can you explain? can you use average standard English? I don't understand a word.
Maria -
Here's the translation:
Your "carrot and stick" method won't work.
Only a complete Israeli withdraw from occupied terrortories will work.
.
#854 Steve Ganot steve.ganot@gmail.com Tue Jan 30th 00:09:42 2007
Salah Uddin Shoaib Choudhury update:
You can help save courageous Salah Uddin Shoaib Choudhury's life
http://www.canadafreepress.com/2007/cover010807.htm
http://www.prnewswire.com/cgi-bin/stories.pl?ACCT=104&STORY=/www/story/01-19-2007/0004509265&EDATE=
http://interfaithstrength.com/
#855 ben Tue Jan 30th 07:44:59 2007
joe
cc maria
i didn't understand your 852. Only a complete Israeli withdraw from occupied terrortories will work.
you were talking about bringing reform to the PA, iran, iraq. only a complete Israeli withdraw from occupied terrortories will bring the needed reforms? will bring peace? will work to do what?
#856 ben Tue Jan 30th 12:53:57 2007
steve
as someone who understands marketing communications, perhaps you might want to to go to the mayor, city council, etc and propose some new banner ads, slogans, etc for beit shemesh? stuff like:
beit shemesh: famous for our methods for corpse storage
we'll protect you from the zionist autopsy
have corpse, will hide.
and so on. think about it. you might be able to get this idea of "added value" to attract new (hopefully still alive) residents.
#857 Joe Tue Jan 30th 13:27:19 2007
you were talking about bringing reform to the PA, iran, iraq
Ben -
Sorry, I don't recall talking about "bringing reforn to the PA, Iran, Iraq".
Where did you get that impression?
#858 Efraim Elites and change Tue Jan 30th 13:36:27 2007
I don't know how to bring about change in Arab society. I do know that in some ways that society has changed in very basic ways and in others it resembles the same society as 16th century Islam.
A lot of the patterns that we see today are nothing new. For instance Islamic fundamentalism has been a recurring phenomenon since the rise of the Abasids. The Almohid impact on North Africa and Spain resembled the effect of the Taliban on Afghanistan, except that Afghanistan wasn't nearly as moderate a place as was Islamic Spain before the Almohid arrival.
Though people sometimes suggest that the Wahabi inspired Islamist forces today are a reaction to Western imperialism, in fact the Wahabi's began, and enjoyed great success before the Western imperialists arrived on the scene. The Wahabis were militarily suppressed for the first time by the Egyptians at the behest of the Ottoman Sultan a century or more before the imperialists arrived in force.
Looking at today's Islamist fundamentalists, I have the impression that what drives them is not so much the presence of Western powers in the Middle East, but the infiltration of Western culture into Muslim society. And I would guess that the most salient aspect of this is the threatened change in the role of women in Islamic society from ignorant secluded baby producer to educated equal member of society. I think such a change is far more threatening to the traditional Muslim male than the presence of Coca Cola or even McDonalds.
Reforms have to start at the top of the society. Reforms must be introduced from within and this will only happen when an elite is produced that is interested in change. The Turks did this through a military elite. The Arabs tried this route in the 50's and 60's but failed. The Turkish military elite was seriously interested in changing the society, while the Arab military elite was mainly interested in staying in charge.
All in all, I think that when you get an Arab leadership that starts investing serious sums in women's education, you will be looking at a modernizing elite rather than one that uses modernization as a political slogan
#859 ben Tue Jan 30th 13:37:21 2007
joe
in 839 maria wrote about carrots and sticks to bring reform to non-democratic corrupt regimes. in 850 you wrote that it doesn't work. in 852, after being asked what you meant (by maria) in 850, you wrote Only a complete Israeli withdraw from occupied terrortories will work.
so unless your 850 had absolutely nothing to do with what you cited from maria's words i ask again:
Only a complete Israeli withdraw from occupied terrortories will work.
will work to do what?